2015 Mazda Miata vs FR-S? To wait, or not to wait?

[Ganthrithor]

Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses

I chuckled myself. A 17yr old with $25K to burn on a car should get something used for $15K or less and bank the $10K on insurance, gas, maintenance, incidentals, and his future. You can certainly find an older Boxster in that range, but you pay P tax on the parts and maintenance, not to mention the reliability of those first gen (<- I think) water cooler sixes is questionable at best. An NA/NB Miata or S2K can be found well within that price range and are likely to last longer overall with less money dumped into them while the driving dynamics are certainly as good.

v0v when I was considering what to replace my GTI with I seem to remember getting a quote for a used Cayman and IIRC it wasn't significantly more than the BRZ. Insurance does vary a ton based on a lot of other factors though, so who knows what he'd pay. Since he's 17 I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that he's going to be paying a lot in premiums to drive anything fun.

As far as the old Boxster / 996 engines are concerned, I'd say avoid the '99s, but to be honest most of them are probably old enough by now that they'd have already grenaded if they were going to have IMS bearing problem, and it's not that hard to find ones that have had the suspect bearings replaced preemptively anyway.

I really don't think the Boxster is as absurd as it looks at first glance as far as used sportscars are concerned-- it's not very expensive, not very powerful, there's a ton of examples on the market to choose from, and the ~$15 grand left over (vs a new 86) will pay for a whole lot of wear-part Porsche tax. I only drove one for a weekend but I remember it being kind of a sweetheart too as far as handling was concerned-- very communicative but also very forgiving.

I agree that the Miata would be a great learning car too, although didn't the NA/NB cars lack ABS? I know at least some NBs don't have them. I'd be a little concerned about sending a 17yo out in a car with no ABS system-- learning to threshold brake is all well and good but I'd want them to have some experience before setting them loose on public roads without ABS.

[vangisback]

Originally Posted by DoomsdayJesus

2 door, 2 seat, convertible sport roadster, 17 year old driver. That's like the insurance company hitting the lottery.

Funny, one of the reasons why I ended up in an S2000 instead of countless other sporty cars is because of the MUCH cheaper insurance. These other cars include the Celica GT-S, RSX Type S, Lancer Evo VIII, WRX STi, and even a Civic Si. None of these are 2 door, 2 seat, convertible sports roadster mind you.

You might want to listen to Fatoni.

[Ganthrithor]

Just bumped into this car while browsing Rennlist: http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforum...s-and-rts.html

Seller says he's willing to sell without the hardtop / roof rack thing for $10.5k. Car has well under a hundred thousand miles and already has the IMS retrofit and a new rear main seal. All it needs are some euro headlights and clear sidemarkers :P

It's not hard to find cars like this if you look-- Porsche made a lot of them. They're an absolute screaming bargain in terms of car for the money if you can live without a fixed roof / rear seats.

[Mikem53]

Originally Posted by Pegasus

My father also wants to test drive both cars and share his input on the trouble I endured with the FR-S clutch and transmission. He used to drag race a built Chevy II Nova SS so I will assume he knows a thing or two about driving stick, even though it was a clunky old American tranny.


I will try them both again, see what my father says and try a different take on the FR-S with the smoother shifts I have been told to use. I really want to love the FR-S as I have dreamed the last 2 years so I will give her a third attempt. Also, your thoughts on this BMW idea would be interesting. Fuel economy and reliability and maybe some cool factor are the only concerns as of right now for the Bimmer. Thanks for the support -Pegasus

There is no comparing a Chevy nova's tranny "feel" to the twins..
I agree with your comments about the FRS being tricky to drive smoothly..
I can tell you that in time, it gets easier and more natural feeling once you have some seat time and the car is broken in some.
The interior of the FRS is more comfortable and roomy.. Which is a huge plus over the miata..
I can't imagine you being disappointed with the FRS once it's broken in and you have some seat time.. It's a great drivers car..

[OrbitalEllipses]

Originally Posted by Ganthrithor

v0v when I was considering what to replace my GTI with I seem to remember getting a quote for a used Cayman and IIRC it wasn't significantly more than the BRZ. Insurance does vary a ton based on a lot of other factors though, so who knows what he'd pay. Since he's 17 I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that he's going to be paying a lot in premiums to drive anything fun.

As far as the old Boxster / 996 engines are concerned, I'd say avoid the '99s, but to be honest most of them are probably old enough by now that they'd have already grenaded if they were going to have IMS bearing problem, and it's not that hard to find ones that have had the suspect bearings replaced preemptively anyway.

I really don't think the Boxster is as absurd as it looks at first glance as far as used sportscars are concerned-- it's not very expensive, not very powerful, there's a ton of examples on the market to choose from, and the ~$15 grand left over (vs a new 86) will pay for a whole lot of wear-part Porsche tax. I only drove one for a weekend but I remember it being kind of a sweetheart too as far as handling was concerned-- very communicative but also very forgiving.

I agree that the Miata would be a great learning car too, although didn't the NA/NB cars lack ABS? I know at least some NBs don't have them. I'd be a little concerned about sending a 17yo out in a car with no ABS system-- learning to threshold brake is all well and good but I'd want them to have some experience before setting them loose on public roads without ABS.

You can definitely find a Cayman within a few thousand of the OTD price of a BRZ Limited. The mileage wasn't anywhere near something I was comfortable with though. Getting a 10 year old German car is always tempting because of how much they depreciate, but it's a poor idea even if you have the double the purchase price of the car for incidentals. Does the OP have $30K cash or are we talking about loan/financing or mommy/daddy buying it? If you have $30K at 17...you should really consider skipping a sports car all together and doing college debt-free or investing that into the market.

[DoomsdayJesus]

Originally Posted by fatoni

http://www.bankrate.com/finance/insu...-insure-1.aspx

i just dont see what youre getting at. im not saying i think the miata is just as safe as other cars but you keep talking like its just common knowledge and i would appreciate it if you would just provide one piece of evidence that the miata is expensive to insure

I just did. I posted an article with sources. And saying the Miata is the least expensive sports car to insure is like saying I bought the least expensive Rolex. It is more expensive than fleets of other vehicles, just less than other sports cars. Do you know why? Read your own article:

And, once again, the data suggests that small cars and speed are an expensive combination for insurers -- especially with a young driver behind the wheel.



"Sporty cars tend to be driven in ways that lead to more crashes," says Rader. "They also tend to be driven by younger, riskier drivers." And smaller cars also tend to be more affordable, which makes them more attractive to those same younger drivers, he says.

So the 54 year old women and others who buy Miatas drive down AVERAGE insurance rates. Not to take away form the car, I like them and admire their performance. But average rates are not remotely close to what a 17 year old male will be paying on a brand new or even slightly used Miata. If you're trying to say otherwise, you are 100% wrong.

And look below:

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

It's actually one of the least expensive to insure among sports cars:

http://voices.yahoo.com/10-least-exp...e-5302851.html

What does that list tell you? People who drive those cars (especially WRXs) have a tendency to produce expensive crashes. People who drive Miatas do so much less often. So as much as prices are driven by design, they are also driven by demographics, which I mentioned earlier. Whether you like to admit it or not, performance tuners, racers, and enthusiasts are not the largest demographic for Miata buyers. WRX and other cars on the most expensive list, that's not the case.

Originally Posted by vangisback

Funny, one of the reasons why I ended up in an S2000 instead of countless other sporty cars is because of the MUCH cheaper insurance. These other cars include the Celica GT-S, RSX Type S, Lancer Evo VIII, WRX STi, and even a Civic Si. None of these are 2 door, 2 seat, convertible sports roadster mind you.

You might want to listen to Fatoni.

When Fatoni doesn't link to self-defeating articles maybe I will. And the S2000 may be cheaper for the same reasons I listed above; if you're 17 and male though, it won't be. Anecdotal evidence is useless in comparing insurance prices. I'd like to meet the insurance adjuster who seriously considers an argument like "Well my friend drives the same car and he payed this much." I have to keep an eye on my soldiers' finances as part of my job, and every time one of them wants to go buy a sports car, I tell them the same thing. Get an insurance quote. Half the time they end up reconsidering because that 350Z that one of my specialists insists on driving costs him over $200 a month to insure. The ones who don't usually end up bitching about never having money because they just think monthly payments without actually budgeting for all of their expenses. Insurance is ALWAYS a case of YMMV.


Like I said, you can throw out whatever argument you want, but in the end the insurance company is going to laugh straight to the bank on a 17 year old male buying a 2 door 2 seat convertible roadster. I'd like to see his insurance quote saying he's paying anything remotely close to $1015 a year. He won't be by a long shot. The only thing possibly driving it down would be if he was on his parent's policy. I'm sorry to let hard facts and common sense get in the way of a good argument.

[chrisl]

Originally Posted by DoomsdayJesus

Like I said, you can throw out whatever argument you want, but in the end the insurance company is going to laugh straight to the bank on a 17 year old male buying a 2 door 2 seat convertible roadster. I'd like to see his insurance quote saying he's paying anything remotely close to $1015 a year. He won't be by a long shot. The only thing possibly driving it down would be if he was on his parent's policy. I'm sorry to let hard facts and common sense get in the way of a good argument.

For what it's worth, driving record and other circumstances matter a lot. I'm paying less than $1015 a year to insure both my Cayman S and my Outback together, and I'm 24. I do have a perfectly clean driving record though.

[DoomsdayJesus]

Originally Posted by chrisl

For what it's worth, driving record and other circumstances matter a lot. I'm paying less than $1015 a year to insure both my Cayman S and my Outback together, and I'm 24. I do have a perfectly clean driving record though.

Yeah, I fully insure an '11 Outback and '13 BRZ for just over $1600 a year for my wife and I (the flipside being USAA just paid me almost $400 in their year-end disbursement, so my total is usually a lot lower). New cars will cost you. My first cars, I was paying about $155 a month when I was 19 and I was driving an old CRX and Mazda 626. In Germany, I paid close to $300 a month for my insurance on my SRT-4 and it wasn't fun when I wasn't driving it.

The only thing killing me was a good number of hit-and-run claims I filed for people hitting my SRT-4 and E46 parked while living in Philly, and one costly one where a taxi hit my BMW and refused to pay. Regardless of fault if your insurance score goes low because you're making claims, you're not going to get the best rates for a few years. Thankfully I don't have any tickets on my record. Credit Karma is a great place to get your approximate auto insurance score.

It sounds like this kid's parents pay for a lot, so it may not be an issue, but it something serious for most of us to consider.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by DoomsdayJesus

I just did. I posted an article with sources. And saying the Miata is the least expensive sports car to insure is like saying I bought the least expensive Rolex. It is more expensive than fleets of other vehicles, just less than other sports cars. Do you know why? Read your own article:

So the 54 year old women and others who buy Miatas drive down AVERAGE insurance rates. Not to take away form the car, I like them and admire their performance. But average rates are not remotely close to what a 17 year old male will be paying on a brand new or even slightly used Miata. If you're trying to say otherwise, you are 100% wrong.

And look below:



What does that list tell you? People who drive those cars (especially WRXs) have a tendency to produce expensive crashes. People who drive Miatas do so much less often. So as much as prices are driven by design, they are also driven by demographics, which I mentioned earlier. Whether you like to admit it or not, performance tuners, racers, and enthusiasts are not the largest demographic for Miata buyers. WRX and other cars on the most expensive list, that's not the case.


When Fatoni doesn't link to self-defeating articles maybe I will. And the S2000 may be cheaper for the same reasons I listed above; if you're 17 and male though, it won't be. Anecdotal evidence is useless in comparing insurance prices. I'd like to meet the insurance adjuster who seriously considers an argument like "Well my friend drives the same car and he payed this much." I have to keep an eye on my soldiers' finances as part of my job, and every time one of them wants to go buy a sports car, I tell them the same thing. Get an insurance quote. Half the time they end up reconsidering because that 350Z that one of my specialists insists on driving costs him over $200 a month to insure. The ones who don't usually end up bitching about never having money because they just think monthly payments without actually budgeting for all of their expenses. Insurance is ALWAYS a case of YMMV.


Like I said, you can throw out whatever argument you want, but in the end the insurance company is going to laugh straight to the bank on a 17 year old male buying a 2 door 2 seat convertible roadster. I'd like to see his insurance quote saying he's paying anything remotely close to $1015 a year. He won't be by a long shot. The only thing possibly driving it down would be if he was on his parent's policy. I'm sorry to let hard facts and common sense get in the way of a good argument.

i think you are acting excessively stubborn. what part of my argument was self defeating? the link i posted showed that the miata was the fifth least expensive car in terms of losses for insurance companies. i took a look at the sourced in the article you posted and found nothing regarding the miata. what the author wrote was an opinion not based by facts. using the 350z as an exmple is not making a strong case. im pretty sure its the deadliest car in america. it has no correlation to the miata.

[DoomsdayJesus]

Originally Posted by fatoni

i think you are acting excessively stubborn. what part of my argument was self defeating? the link i posted showed that the miata was the fifth least expensive car in terms of losses for insurance companies. i took a look at the sourced in the article you posted and found nothing regarding the miata. what the author wrote was an opinion not based by facts. using the 350z as an exmple is not making a strong case. im pretty sure its the deadliest car in america. it has no correlation to the miata.

I'm not being stubborn, you conveniently overlook every argument I make. Average insurance prices on a miata are not representative of what a 17 year old male will pay. And you're acting like a butthurt fanboy who will not consider any info detrimental to your sentiments.

I directly addressed your claim, and you skip to an inaccurate summary of my argument. Your own article proved my point TWICE! If Miatas are cheaper it's more a function of who's driving them and not the design. That low average will not be reflected in any way, shape, or form in a quote to a 17 year old male. It will if you're a middle-aged adult with a clean driving record buying a Miata, which is what the majority of Miata buyers are demographically. If you're going to continue to engage me with pure hyperbole and logical fallacies you're just making yourself look like a fool.

and the 350Z was an example of getting people to budget expenses, not proving my point. Sports cars are unequivocally some of the most expensive cars to insure, much more so for young males, and even the cheapest sports car to insure will be expensive for a 17 year old male. What part of that is hard for you to comprehend?

[Ganthrithor]

Originally Posted by chrisl

For what it's worth, driving record and other circumstances matter a lot. I'm paying less than $1015 a year to insure both my Cayman S and my Outback together, and I'm 24. I do have a perfectly clean driving record though.

Originally Posted by DoomsdayJesus

Yeah, I fully insure an '11 Outback and '13 BRZ for just over $1600 a year

Good lord, I want your insurance rates. I'm about to turn 26, have never had an accident, and have had one speeding ticket ever and that's not even on my record because I did traffic school (and that was years ago: 2008 IIRC). Even just looking at plain-Jane, upper-tier insurance from Progressive I was quoted $1800/yr for my BRZ after discounts. I'm currently looking at another agreed-value policy that will cover my mods as well as guarantee me OEM parts for repairs, and they want $2700/yr for that. It's clearly not a result of my driving record, my car is stored off-street in the least-sketchy area in the world, and my cars are usually pretty low mileage (significantly under 10k mi/yr in the past), so I'd love to know why insurance companies want to rape me.

Whatever you guys are doing to keep your rates down there, keep it up. Yikes. Jelly.

[DoomsdayJesus]

Originally Posted by Ganthrithor

Whatever you guys are doing to keep your rates down there, keep it up. Yikes. Jelly.

Married, with kids, a garage in a good neighborhood, good driving record, 30 years old. Plus I get discounts for having home and other insurance with USAA, and I've been with them for a long time.

But yeah, any insurance policy to cover mods is going to bleed you. Honestly unless I had a built motor or something, I doubt it would be worth it to me in the long run.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by DoomsdayJesus

I'm not being stubborn, you conveniently overlook every argument I make. Average insurance prices on a miata are not representative of what a 17 year old male will pay. And you're acting like a butthurt fanboy who will not consider any info detrimental to your sentiments.

I directly addressed your claim, and you skip to an inaccurate summary of my argument. Your own article proved my point TWICE! If Miatas are cheaper it's more a function of who's driving them and not the design. That low average will not be reflected in any way, shape, or form in a quote to a 17 year old male. It will if you're a middle-aged adult with a clean driving record buying a Miata, which is what the majority of Miata buyers are demographically. If you're going to continue to engage me with pure hyperbole and logical fallacies you're just making yourself look like a fool.

and the 350Z was an example of getting people to budget expenses, not proving my point. Sports cars are unequivocally some of the most expensive cars to insure, much more so for young males, and even the cheapest sports car to insure will be expensive for a 17 year old male. What part of that is hard for you to comprehend?

i have no problem admitting how much i like the miata. you keep bringing up the fact that he is 17 though and i dont know how that is the miatas fault. what other car is going to make that issue disappear regarding insurance rates? the miata is a cheap car to insure. the 17 year old is an expensive person to insure.

[chrisl]

Originally Posted by Ganthrithor

Good lord, I want your insurance rates. I'm about to turn 26, have never had an accident, and have had one speeding ticket ever and that's not even on my record because I did traffic school (and that was years ago: 2008 IIRC). Even just looking at plain-Jane, upper-tier insurance from Progressive I was quoted $1800/yr for my BRZ after discounts. I'm currently looking at another agreed-value policy that will cover my mods as well as guarantee me OEM parts for repairs, and they want $2700/yr for that. It's clearly not a result of my driving record, my car is stored off-street in the least-sketchy area in the world, and my cars are usually pretty low mileage (significantly under 10k mi/yr in the past), so I'd love to know why insurance companies want to rape me.

Whatever you guys are doing to keep your rates down there, keep it up. Yikes. Jelly.

Yeah - I really was surprised when I learned how low my insurance cost was going to be when I came off my parents policy a while ago - I expected it to be a lot higher before I shopped around and got some quotes. Apparently, high level of education (masters degree), good credit score, and clean driving record really make a big difference. Here's the breakdown of my 6 month premium, for what it's worth...