This is not a winter car! Fed up! May end up selling...

[Suberman]

Originally Posted by Flyer

Please voice all driving issues in regards to handling at the limit in the appropriate sub-forum in order to determine where the issue really lies, whether it's the chassis, suspension setup, or just an ID-10-t error.

This thread is about winter driving. It is morphing into yet another track driving thread. This thread is supposed to be about how suitable and capable this car is to drive in winter.

It's not even about ice racing or even winter driving schools.

It happens that the problems this car presents as a winter driver also hinder its ability to be quick on a track but the focus is on discussing why it doesn't drive well in winter and what could be done to deal with this.

[jvincent]

I'm still waiting for the list of chassis defects that hinder the winter performance.

[wparsons]

Originally Posted by Suberman

I thought you were having difficulty understanding the actual geometry of what clipping an apex does. Draw yourself a picture or, better yet, look at the shape of the racing line next time you see a race track.

"Apex" is really just slang because only triangles can have one. What is meant by "apex" is the point at the inside of a bend where the car reaches the edge of the road. It isn't really an apex at all.

There is no way to change the average radius of a bend. Therefore, the only purpose in clipping the apex is to traverse the bend by entering on a decreasing radius and leaving on an increasing radius. The minimum radius will be taken at the slowest speed. That is basically what it means.

"Late apex" implies an early point of minimum radius. The natural apex of a constant radius bend is halfway around, you almost never drive that way on track. On the road you should pretty much always drive that way: treating the halfway point in the bend as the apex you need to "clip".

For safe winter driving the quickest way around a bend is a line of constant radius. Of course, this is strictly true if the corner does not need to be braked for, you will always need braking zones but once the speed is reduced to the maximum the corner will allow then the constant radius line will get you through the corner faster than trying to find the apex. In fact, a corner like Parabolica is driven that way. This is because the effective straights entering and leaving the corner are not as important as the corner itself due to its length. In winter conditions you would drive Parabolica on the outside radius if you could.

100% wrong on what an apex is, and what clipping an apex means.

An apex is nothing more than the geometric center of the turn, based on the line you're taking NOT the shape of the pavement around you. There are lots of turns where the fast line has the apex in the middle of the track.

You're mixing in parabolic entries as well as an early or late apex.

Look at this picture...
Light blue is a late apex
Green is the text book apex
Dark blue is an early apex




Which line is truly fastest depends on the car, track, where the next corner is and driver, but the text book like is always the starting point.

Notice one very important thing about all three lines in that picture? The turn in point, apex and turn exit point are all very close together. The difference is where you feed in more steering and where you're going straighter.

If you find you're oversteering out of every corner, you're either driving incorrectly (on the gas before the apex) or taking a line with too early of an apex for your car/setup.

There's a 4th option for a driving line that isn't illustrated, and that would be one where you simply follow the inner or outer edge of the track instead of starting from the outside, hitting the inside (proper usage of clipping the apex) then finishing at the outside. That is how you effectively increase the radius of a corner. Compare the radius of the green line in the picture to the radius of the outer edge of the corner. The green line is pretty close to a circular line, but is a MUCH larger radius than the outer edge of the corner.

As for what's safer in winter, a late apex is much safer because you're going straighter when you get on the gas. Going straighter means you're asking the tires to provide less lateral grip while you're asking for forward grip. If you're driving the perfectly round text book line you'll be delaying when you can get onto the gas until WAY after the apex or you'll be spinning out.

[Suberman]

Originally Posted by jvincent

I'm still waiting for the list of chassis defects that hinder the winter performance.

Me too, if I knew I might be able to fix them. However, I think they are permanent.

The result of the defects is a car that oversteers far too readily, most noticably on slippery roads. It is such a silly car in that respect I leave it at home if it is slippery out. It just isn't worth the effort to try and drive it.

Hopeless on slippery stuff. Evo long term GT86 is the same even on Dunlop summer tires, new article out today if you have a iPad subscription.

All the reports about this car are the same, it oversteers easily. The differences in opinion are whether you like that or not. I don't.

[Suberman]

Finally wparsons had looked at a picture which demonstrates what I have been saying all along.

I knew all that but now others can see for themselves how it works.

The light blue line shows a tightening radius going in, with minimum radius well before the apex, and increasing radius going out. This is the classic late apex line used with a powerful car and good traction (neither if which applies to the BRZ), or if you are a little uncertain about the bend because you can't see all the way around. This is the slowest entry speed way around the corner because the entry line is the tightest. Combined with the Scandie flick this can even be very effective in a powerful fwd car.

The green line is constant radius which is quickest in low powered cars on low friction surfaces, such as in winter. The apex of that line is the geometric apex of the corner, formed by two perpendiculars and a bisecting line from the apex of those perpendiculars to touch the inside edge of the road. This is where the term "apex" comes from even though it is misapplied in reality.

The blue line is performed by drivers working backwards, often experienced by idiots and frequently demonstrated by Massa when out braking himself....

This is the "emergency" line, or the holy shit line or the Dipstick line....

[jvincent]

Saying that the car oversteers easily does not mean there is a design defect. The roads were snowy / slippery today when I went to get lunch, so I made a point of taking all the various corners on my route faster than I should have. Getting the rear end to slide was ENTIRELY a function of throttle input at the wrong time. That's not a car defect, it's a driver defect.

That said, since I had all the nannies on as soon as it started to slide they kicked in and the car stayed straight as an arrow.

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[effty_ac]

Since I live in Los Angeles I've had an especially hard time with the winter driving. Today was like 80F. Brr!

[wparsons]

Originally Posted by Suberman

Finally wparsons had looked at a picture which demonstrates what I have been saying all along.

I knew all that but now others can see for themselves how it works.

The light blue line shows a tightening radius going in, with minimum radius well before the apex, and increasing radius going out. This is the classic late apex line used with a powerful car and good traction (neither if which applies to the BRZ), or if you are a little uncertain about the bend because you can't see all the way around. This is the slowest entry speed way around the corner because the entry line is the tightest. Combined with the Scandie flick this can even be very effective in a powerful fwd car.

The green line is constant radius which is quickest in low powered cars on low friction surfaces, such as in winter. The apex of that line is the geometric apex of the corner, formed by two perpendiculars and a bisecting line from the apex of those perpendiculars to touch the inside edge of the road. This is where the term "apex" comes from even though it is misapplied in reality.

The blue line is performed by drivers working backwards, often experienced by idiots and frequently demonstrated by Massa when out braking himself....

This is the "emergency" line, or the holy shit line or the Dipstick line....

Except that this post is the first time you've properly used those terms... your last post on it tried to claim that clipping the apex was the same as a late apex. Thank you for saying exactly what I already said though.

You should go back and re-read what you've been saying before accusing anyone else of being wrong.

You're also wrong on what type of line is fastest, there are lots of times where an early apex is actually much faster depending on the car and placement of the next turn. You calling it the dipstick line is greatly over simplifying the complexity of picking the right line the whole way around a track. Without knowing the layout of the track, the car (and setup) you simply can't call one line wrong.

As for which line on low grip surfaces, go look at what kind of line rally drivers take. If you take a text book round line you're going to be waiting a long time until you can get on the gas. A later line will let you get on the gas sooner which will be faster (or safer).

Have you ever actually driven on a track, it sure doesn't sound like you have.

[Dipstik-sportech]

My chevette, samurai, 86 Chevy 2wd, and my ranger all oversteered worse than my BRZ. Do all of those have defects making them unsafe to drive when it's slippery because if they do you better tell the MILLIONS of people driving them.

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[Suberman]

Originally Posted by Dipstik-sportech

My chevette, samurai, 86 Chevy 2wd, and my ranger all oversteered worse than my BRZ. Do all of those have defects making them unsafe to drive when it's slippery because if they do you better tell the MILLIONS of people driving them.

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Yup, those are some of the very worst cars ever foisted on the general public. Thanks for testing them and proving that. You're lucky to still be alive.

The samurai were to commit hari kiri rather than admit defeat, odd name for a mini soft reader. Awful and terminally dangerous vehicle completely unsuited to North American driving conditions.

[Dipstik-sportech]

I loved my Sammy @SmsAlSuwaidi
A ranger dangerous really? What do u consider safe? A Volvo a Saab?

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[Suberman]

Originally Posted by Dipstik-sportech

I loved my Sammy @SmsAlSuwaidi
A ranger dangerous really? What do u consider safe? A Volvo a Saab?

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I'm not sure its worth it to point this out but you do need to read more carefully.

Just about anything is safer than a Samurai, even that pretty hopeless mini pick up, the Ranger. The main thing wrong with the Ranger/B210 was build quality, all pick ups handle fairly poorly. Well, except for the Ford 150 Raptor of course.

Now back to the BRZ, which is a very safe car...to have a crash in.

[Dipstik-sportech]

This thread isn't about crash safety its about handling. If you want a safe vehicle buy an s class.

Oh and I never had any issues with build quality in my ranger. Do you like anything? Like are you on antidepressants?

I've got an idea, stop driving the car in the winter!! Then we don't have to listen to you bitch about how bad it is. There seems too be way more people that enjoy this car in the snow than ones that hate it.
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[Dipstik-sportech]

Originally Posted by Suberman

No, you quote from third rate 20 year old movies? Really?

Third rate movie r u sick in the head?

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