Official: Toyota FT-1 Concept / First New Supra Prototype Spotted!

[abraxis]

Toyota is already asking a lot of me to accept this Supra if it's notably over 3100lbs. That's pushing my limits. The idea big brakes, X-Men magneto suspension and big block boosted V8's will make me or other driving enthusiasts forget we're shoving an extra 800-1000lbs thru a canyon is beyond the pale of sensibility.

Also the notion that the Camaro has visibility barely any better than a WW2 Sherman tank is borderline GM fanboyism if you ask me. Maybe a Lambo Huracan on airbags would be more comparable in that regard.

If people were wondering who this car could be for, let's start with all the complainers that moaned for eons the 86 should have come with a turbo and more power. Well, here u go. Please can we move on now from that sad old tale?? If we can, the Supra is worth it for that reason alone if you ask me.

[Summerwolf]

Originally Posted by abraxis

Toyota is already asking a lot of me to accept this Supra if it's notably over 3100lbs. That's pushing my limits. The idea big brakes, X-Men magneto suspension and big block boosted V8's will make me or other driving enthusiasts forget we're shoving an extra 800-1000lbs thru a canyon is beyond the pale of sensibility.

Also the notion that the Camaro has visibility barely any better than a WW2 Sherman tank is borderline GM fanboyism if you ask me. Maybe a Lambo Huracan on airbags would be more comparable in that regard.

If people were wondering who this car could be for, let's start with all the complainers that moaned for eons the 86 should have come with a turbo and more power. Well, here u go. Please can we move on now from that sad old tale?? If we can, the Supra is worth it for that reason alone if you ask me.

Who has a boosted big block?

It's not gm fanboyism, originally this new supra was thought to be on par with the C7, now it's been took down a notch. With a four cylinder turbo option it seems like this will be Toyotas version of a pony car in the market. Of course comparisons will be made.

The sixth gen+ camaros are radically different than their predecessors in a lot of ways, including visibility to some extent. Weight is of course inherently hard to overcome, but some of the bigger offerings mask it well. It will be interesting to see how the supra truly winds up when its released and the mass of comparisons start.

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by Summerwolf

Didnt say anything about their size. If you've driven one (especially a v8 or track oriented model) the size and weight kind of becomes a secondary thing. The seating position and overall feel is good.

Once comparisons start coming we will see how the new supra stacks up. It's sad that we are even bench racing it against common "muscle cars." That just shows how little the expectations of the supra are, or how far the common pony car offerings have come.

I don't doubt it for a second. But unless you're gonna foot my bill for tires and brakes after a weekend at a track event - then I flat out can't afford it and thus heavy cars are a non-starter. Consumable expenses for any of the new V8 pony cars are ridiculously high.

Meanwhile I can get 10 track days out of the Pagid Yellows on my Cayman. And 6 days & 20-25,000 street miles on my tires (Pilot Super Sports).

[Irace86.2.0]

I’m sure the size can become less disagreeable as the driver becomes acclimatized to the dimensions, but I have gotten into a ND Miatas and immediately felt that it was too small, and I have gotten into vehicles larger than the BRZ like the WRX, Jetta GLI, etc then into pony cars; they all felt huge. In fact, I’ve owned two MKIV Supras, and the first time I got into one and did a walk around I thought it was huge. I’m more of a BRZ, RX7, etc sized driver.

[Summerwolf]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

I don't doubt it for a second. But unless you're gonna foot my bill for tires and brakes after a weekend at a track event - then I flat out can't afford it and thus heavy cars are a non-starter. Consumable expenses for any of the new V8 pony cars are ridiculously high.

Meanwhile I can get 10 track days out of the Pagid Yellows on my Cayman. And 6 days & 20-25,000 street miles on my tires (Pilot Super Sports).

That's a valid concern for someone that is primarily track oriented and concerned about consumable prices.


Has Toyota even said what size wheels / tires are on the new Supra?

[Summerwolf]

@Irace86.2.0-Doesn't the MK IV supra have a shorter wheelbase than the BRZ?


100.4 for the supra vs 101.2 for the BRZ or are these not the correct numbers?

[gymratter]

dimensions on the A90, for the 100x...

A90
Wheelbase 2,470 mm (97.2 in)
Length 4380 mm (172.4 in)
Width 1855 mm (73 in)
Height 1,290 mm (50.8 in)

A80
Wheelbase 2,550 mm (100.4 in)
Length 4,515 mm (177.8 in)
Width 1,811 mm (71.3 in)
Height 1,265 mm (49.8 in)

about the same size as the 718 Cayman

982
Wheelbase 2,475 mm (97.4 in)
Length 4,379 mm (172 in)
Width (70.9 in)
Height 1,295 mm (51 in)

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Summerwolf

@Irace86.2.0-Doesn't the MK IV supra have a shorter wheelbase than the BRZ?


100.4 for the supra vs 101.2 for the BRZ or are these not the correct numbers?

The wheelbase dimensions are things that can be felt when cornering, right? But it is the body dimensions and cabin dimensions I was referring to. Wheelbase is negligible between the two.

The length of the MKIV vs 86 is 10''. I sold my 96' hardtop Supra in 2007, so it has been 11 years, but from memory, the hood was not only longer, but was taller. The 86's hood also slants down, which really makes it feel smaller from the driver's perspective. The MKIV was wider by an inch, but I wish I had seat to seat or door panel to door panel comparisons because the 86 feels like the cabin is smaller. The MKIV has the same or slightly shorter height, but inside, I recall the seats were taller, probably to allow enough vision over the hood. The 86 has adjustable height (mine is at the lowest setting). The driver sits slightly further forward in the 86, and the visibility over the front fenders is better than the MKIV. I don't recall if the rear felt more spacious, and the rear seats were further back and larger because the car was a hatch, but I feel like it felt bigger--bigger in the height and width of the rear hunches. Again, it has been a long time.

Of course the thing that felt the most different was the weight. It was 600lbs heavier than the 86. The weight and suspension made it feel really planted on the road like rock solid, even at 120-140 mph+, but it was still lumbering and soft in the corners compared to the 86. My first supra was a targa 93' and the chassis flex was horrible with the top off, so bad that I rarely took off the targa if I was even considering driving aggressively on turns--only if I was doing a gentle cruise. That's why I bought a hardtop later, but that flex added to the sense of weight. The MKIV probably had better sound deadening and thicker components making for a sense that I was in a larger, stronger structure, even if the 86 shares similar dimensions.



My feelings are the new Supra will feel both smaller and bigger than the 86, but definitely smaller than the MKIV. It appears to be five inches shorter than the MKIV. It may be lighter, but obviously heavier than the 86. It will likely feel much smaller in cabin size being a two seater. The fact that the 2JZ was an inline six and the B58 is a slant six hopefully means the hoodline will be lower, yet BMW usually adds a whole bunch more stuff on top of the engine, including an air-water intercooler.

EDIT: Dimensions play a large roll in size perception, obviously, but the weight is the bigger thing for me. Just adding my 65+lb Harrop supercharger to the BRZ feels cumbersome at times and changes the driving dynamics. Adding a passenger does even more. The MKIV is equivalent in weight to me loading up three, two-hundred-pound passengers. Even if the dimensions are similar to the 86, that weight is significantly noticeable.

[LancePower]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

My feelings are the new Supra will feel both smaller and bigger than the 86, but definitely smaller than the MKIV.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVle0kopfes[/ame]

[mn_ca]

Hopefully that 73" phat ass is sexy :P

[m.box.design]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Of course the thing that felt the most different was the weight. It was 600lbs heavier than the 86. The weight and suspension made it feel really planted on the road like rock solid, even at 120-140 mph+, but it was still lumbering and soft in the corners compared to the 86.

The 86 definitely begs to be thrown into corners. The A80's weight doesn't lend itself to be nimble and tactile in corners.

[ZDan]

It's sad that we are even bench racing it against common "muscle cars." That just shows how little the expectations of the supra are, or how far the common pony car offerings have come.

For me, I do not care where the Supra falls relative to these "common pony cars" in terms of hard numbers like acceleration/skidpad/braking or Lightning Laps or Nurburgring times. Other aspects are more important to me.

Originally Posted by Summerwolf

Stepping from one car to the other, or driving them closely together (within days or hours) I'm saying the overall experience will be surprisingly similar.

This may be true *for you*. I can only tell you that over years of stepping into and out of many different cars at the track, I personally (speaking only for myself!) enjoy being in much smaller lighterweight cars vs. larger heavier cars. Even if it means slower lap times, or even less lateral g capability. In particular one day at Mont Tremblant I was in and out of a GTR and a Lotus Elise. GTR was *scads* faster and more capable. But it was the Elise I had the most fun in... Made my S2000 feel like a big heavy boat in comparison...

A four cylinder Camaro 1le is likely to be a direct performance competitor to the 4 cylinder supra.

So what? There are things that are more important even to some of us trackhounds!
FWIW the 4-cylinder 1LE is a direct price competitor to the FT86 with Brembos. What does that mean? Personally, despite it being a lot slower, the BRZ PP was by far *the* car for me to buy. Camaro 1LE, while IMO a very cool car in it's own way, is just not for me and emphatically NOT what I want for a DD and track car. The subjective experience *is* very different...

Originally Posted by Summerwolf

The statement meant back to back the driving experience will be similar. Especially since he mentioned the low seat and beltline. They will be closer than it's being lead to believe with such comments as "giant brick like behemoths."

Having been driven around the track in these "brick-like behemoths", all I can say that the experience vs. even an oversized/overweight sports car like the 370Z is *not at all similar*. To ME anyway...

Originally Posted by Summerwolf

It's not gm fanboyism, originally this new supra was thought to be on par with the C7, now it's been took down a notch.

Still don't agree with the notion that the mere availability of a "lesser" version takes the top-dog model "down a notch". Existence of base-model 911 doesn't reduce or take down the GTxRS models, not as far as I'm concerned anyway...

Any case, I don't want or need for this car to be a Japanese/Austrian/German C7.

With a four cylinder turbo option it seems like this will be Toyotas version of a pony car in the market. Of course comparisons will be made.

It strikes me as exceedingly odd that you make the point that a 4-cylinder version (not a typical "pony car" powerplant!) is what makes the Jr. Supra *more* like a "pony car"!

But anyway, consider for a moment that it's late 1969, there's a 230hp SOHC 6 Firebird on the market, and also a 150hp SOHC6 240Z. Did anyone cross-shop these cars? Probably. Are they *really* comparable? Not to me they aren't. Surely the Firebird was quicker, but for me, SO WHAT, 240Z all day every day...

Originally Posted by Summerwolf

That's a valid concern for someone that is primarily track oriented and concerned about consumable prices.

This is a minor factor for me. But still, the very idea of lugging all that extra size and weight around and having to buy huge and expensive enormo wheels and tires is a factor. More so for me, it's a philosophical point: All that expense in terms of more power, bigger wheels, bigger tires, bigger brakes, because you started with an enormously oversized "sporty" car. Seems very wrong to me...

Has Toyota even said what size wheels / tires are on the new Supra?

Z4 sizes have been seen on Supras being tested: 225/45-18 fronts and 255/40-18 rears.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Having been driven around the track in these "brick-like behemoths", all I can say that the experience vs. even an oversized/overweight sports car like the 370Z is *not at all similar*. To ME anyway...

If the 370z is oversized/overweight then you may not like the Supra. The two should be fairly comparable in power/weight/dimensions, right?

Length 167-171"
Width 73-74"
Height 52"
Wheelbase 100"
HP: 350
TQ: 275
Wt: 3232lbs

I do think the 370Z is a little chunky in some departments, but I also expect it to be more stout and less leaned out than the 86.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

If the 370z is oversized/overweight then you may not like the Supra. The two should be fairly comparable in power/weight/dimensions, right?

I didn't mind the size/weight of the 370Z as much as I thought I would. Nothing like being in a Camaro or Mustang. Still prefer FT86 over Z though.

Supra should be an improvement over Z for me based on positioning of driver's posterior relative to wheelbase, *way* aft, just in front of rear wheels, like in my beloved/departed 240Z and S2000...