Which off-the-shelf Supercharger would you like to see CSG test?

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by TemeCal

True, but I'm not sure I'd want to run an "off-the-shelf" tune on the track. I've had enough issues on the track running NA. There's no way I'd run ANY of the FI kits on the track without it being dialed in by a tuner like Bill.

Same goes with an oil cooler, radiator, (and intercooler for me). As far as I remember, Robi is not even running an intercooler.

Bill is heavily involved in several of the off-the-shelf, ready-to-go kits. If the manufacturers can't replicate the reliability of a short 2-4 hour tuning session, then we have bigger problems.

[TemeCal]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Bill is heavily involved in several of the off-the-shelf, ready-to-go kits. If the manufacturers can't replicate the reliability of a short 2-4 hour tuning session, then we have bigger problems.

I realize Bill is heavily involved in the "ready-to-go" kits. But that still doesn't mean the tune is going to be perfect for every environment. He's 20min from my house, so I'll be fortunate enough to have him dyno tune mine when I'm ready.

You've gone through a few engines. I've gone through FOUR direct injectors (even after the claimed EcuTek "fix" was installed on my car). I just don't trust things "off the shelf".

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by TemeCal

But that still doesn't mean the tune is going to be perfect for every environment.

I doubt you'd retune for every condition.

I would expect the OTS tune to be good for anything from freezing weather (~20F is the lowest I expect to see in SoCal, up in the mountains) to the desert (~120F ambient). Are you exposing your car to conditions outside of that?

[Deep Six]

Originally Posted by ATL BRZ

Voted for Jackson Racing. Simplicity is key for me and I like that about the JR kit. Upgradability is a non-issue for me since the C30-94 would deliver ~280whp with E85 on my setup easily. I'd also prefer to not exceed the stock fueling and clutch capacities should I ever go FI.

My vote as well for exactly the same reasons. I bought the FRS to have a part time DD that can be economically run at several HPDE's each year. This probably describes the intent of the vast majority of " track cars". I plan to add a supercharger after completing AND experiencing all of the available NA mods that remain relevant with the addition of a SC. Going above 300whp brings additional costs into the equation that just don't align with my objectives.

At least today

[TemeCal]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

I doubt you'd retune for every condition.

I would expect the OTS tune to be good for anything from freezing weather (~20F is the lowest I expect to see in SoCal, up in the mountains) to the desert (~120F ambient). Are you exposing your car to conditions outside of that?

No, all of my track days are SoCal, Vegas and AZ. I'm simply stating that the OTS tune that works for us, may not work for everyone else. If we all had the same conditions (elevation, weather, humidity, gas quality, car mod differences, etc...), none of us would have to worry about getting a proper tune. But that's obviously not the case. We all talk about getting a proper dyno tune, but somehow a basic OTS tune is okay for FI?

I like you guys a lot, and have a lot of respect for you. However, I don't see eye-to-eye with you on this. And frankly, I'm surprised. You guys have had more major issues than any other FT86 owner I've known. I would think you'd be pushing for a safe tune, and supporting mods that make it safer on the track.

Edit: Mike, I'm terribly sorry for derailing the thread. I just noticed the subject of this thread states "off-the-shelf". I still believe precautions are needed if you track, but realize you are talking about testing OTS products. I'll bow out, and enjoy the testing you guys do. Keep up the good work.

[CSG David]

Originally Posted by TemeCal

No, all of my track days are SoCal, Vegas and AZ. I'm simply stating that the OTS tune that works for us, may not work for everyone else. If we all had the same conditions (elevation, weather, humidity, gas quality, car mod differences, etc...), none of us would have to worry about getting a proper tune. But that's obviously not the case. We all talk about getting a proper dyno tune, but somehow a basic OTS tune is okay for FI?

I like you guys a lot, and have a lot of respect for you. However, I don't see eye-to-eye with you on this. And frankly, I'm surprised. You guys have had more major issues than any other FT86 owner I've known. I would think you'd be pushing for a safe tune, and supporting mods that make it safer on the track.

Edit: Mike, I'm terribly sorry for derailing the thread. I just noticed the subject of this thread states "off-the-shelf". I still believe precautions are needed if you track, but realize you are talking about testing OTS products. I'll bow out, and enjoy the testing you guys do. Keep up the good work.

We do not object a proper tune done on modifications in general since every FRS/BRZ is modded a little differently. That proper custom tune is dialed in specifically to bring out the best out of the modifications of your car and also help provide additional safety measures that may not be employed from OTS tunes.

However, to keep things closer to an apples to apples comparison (I seriously hate that analogy), we have opted to test OTS tuned kits to provide a deeper insight on reliability, performance, and quality of R&D. It's also banking on larger risks of potential issues, but I believe this is what we have been doing since day 1 to provide the community some invaluable information that most people don't dare to attempt. And yes, CSG David is alive.

[xjohnx]

The community has spoken. Innovate with more votes than the other 3 options combined.

[Dezoris]

Originally Posted by xjohnx

That's exactly my point. If these questions are valid and he REALLY wants the answers, then why WOULDN'T he want CSG to test the innovate kit?

Because the Innovate kit was released half baked at a low price point to sell as many as possible. Mission accomplished. That was their sales model. It's not track-able out of the box and it won't run in all conditions. Specifically on 91 octane in the heat without issues with tip in knock and plenty of timing retard and heat soak. Talked to owners, tuners, seen first hand.

Thats why they are working hard with guys like nameless and other vendors to release add ons like the IAT kits and IC kits. It's become a modular kit. Innovate started the hyperbole, by saying IC is not needed and heat was not an issue but never provided any proof or testing. Despite it being well known they had issues with their own car on 91. These guys are out to sell product for as cheap as possible and give very little back to the community in terms of data and info. But has unbelievable fan boys behind them, I don't get it.

Now that they release an IC months later, you guys still want to support them and not the new players to the market who actually have some track testing and race background instead?

Innovate blew their chance, let Jackson and Kraftwerks get a shot at the press from CSG who will actually test the kit out of the box.

[ATL BRZ]

Originally Posted by Dezoris

Because the Innovate kit was released half baked at a low price point to sell as many as possible. Mission accomplished. That was their sales model. It's not track-able out of the box and it won't run in all conditions. Specifically on 91 octane in the heat without issues with tip in knock and plenty of timing retard and heat soak. Talked to owners, tuners, seen first hand.

Thats why they are working hard with guys like nameless and other vendors to release add ons like the IAT kits and IC kits. It's become a modular kit. Innovate started the hyperbole, by saying IC is not needed and heat was not an issue but never provided any proof or testing. Despite it being well known they had issues with their own car on 91. These guys are out to sell product for as cheap as possible and give very little back to the community in terms of data and info. But has unbelievable fan boys behind them, I don't get it.

Now that they release an IC months later, you guys still want to support them and not the new players to the market who actually have some track testing and race background instead?

Innovate blew their chance, let Jackson and Kraftwerks get a shot at the press from CSG who will actually test the kit out of the box.

Couldn't agree more!

[King Tut]

Originally Posted by Dezoris

Because the Innovate kit was released half baked at a low price point to sell as many as possible. Mission accomplished. That was their sales model.

That's unpossible.

[s2d4]

Originally Posted by Dezoris

Because the Innovate kit was released half baked at a low price point to sell as many as possible. Mission accomplished. That was their sales model.

I don't see how this is bad, sounds like a good idea to have different stages and cater to a wide market.

Originally Posted by Dezoris

It's not track-able out of the box and it won't run in all conditions.

Perhaps your idea of track-able is different? Pretty sure others have tracked with the stage 1 setup.

Originally Posted by Dezoris

Specifically on 91 octane in the heat without issues with tip in knock and plenty of timing retard and heat soak. Talked to owners, tuners, seen first hand.

This is on the innovate tune? Tip in knock exists in the stock tune as well. As for heat soak on the stage 1, what do people expect when there is no cooling?

Originally Posted by Dezoris

Thats why they are working hard with guys like nameless and other vendors to release add ons like the IAT kits and IC kits.

Yeah, we'll take your word for it.

Originally Posted by Dezoris

It's become a modular kit. Innovate started the hyperbole, by saying IC is not needed and heat was not an issue but never provided any proof or testing.

Yeah, they did not have the kit on their car at the track nor did they have any beta testers also hitting track.

Originally Posted by Dezoris

Despite it being well known they had issues with their own car on 91.

Cue visconti... He was the darling of this forum at that stage, pretty sure most people have learnt that lesson by now.

Originally Posted by Dezoris

These guys are out to sell product for as cheap as possible and give very little back to the community in terms of data and info.

I see, they are the vendor for the only PD choice for people that wants PDs. Considering the amount of engineering that went into the intake manifold/mounting/IC setup, I find it surprising that it is in the same price range and even lower for the entry kit.

Originally Posted by Dezoris

But has unbelievable fan boys behind them, I don't get it.

Am I a fan boy? Pretty sure there are always at least a couple of people justifying their purchase even when all the facts are stacked against them in those FI comparison/opinion threads from your camp.

Originally Posted by Dezoris

Now that they release an IC months later, you guys still want to support them and not the new players to the market who actually have some track testing and race background instead?

People who wish to purchase IC, they can. People who wish to stay at stage 1 and wait for the carb tune, they can. They are totally screwing their customers for providing the IC option?

[thill]

Originally Posted by Dezoris

Innovate blew their chance, let Jackson and Kraftwerks get a shot at the press from CSG who will actually test the kit out of the box.

[s2d4]

Originally Posted by King Tut

That's unpossible.

Just as well you didn't become the forum mod for FI section, you wouldn't be able to have as much fun as you are having now

[King Tut]

Originally Posted by s2d4

Just as well you didn't become the forum mod for FI section, you wouldn't be able to have as much as you are having now

troof.