Ohlins Road & Track for FRS/BRZ suspension install/review thread

[churchx]

Originally Posted by ajc209

Actually Chris Witter of Ohlins visits forums regularly looking for feedback. His team developed the MI20 kit at the ring in Germany. I want him/Ohlins to offer both kits....

Well, at least in this forum in majority cases after MI20>MP20 change i've seen advises to pass on new kit/consider competitor products due too soft spring rates (and i guess that short travel of rear ones makes it even sooner to hit bumpstops). If that had counted to anything, then imho old kit should have been resurrected since long ago, "feedback-wise". While not everybody goes for r-compounds or for widest tires they can fit, i doubt that there are many that will buy primacies once stock set is worn down, thus not sure it's worth to consider designing kit for such gripless setup at all, even more so on track .. chance to see someone on primacies is very slim. So new kit imho simply should be called "Road", dropping "Track" part. While MI20 may perform a bit better then stock (comfort aside), improvements due chosen new compromise/comfort-performance handling bias imho simply do not justify cost. From side it seems that Tein/Koni/KW/Bilstein offerings are more popular for both DD (due lower price & also comfort improvement over stock) and (of course different sets) for track (due more adequate stiffer spring rates/more capability with tires that actually are used). Somehow i fail to see niche for new Ohlins, where they might be seriously competitive to alternatives. It won't do even for ones doing extreme lowering. Jack of all trades, master of none.
What would make me consider them - up travel & minimum drop to stock levels, return MI20 spring rates, slot upper holes (+add ability to use their rally-ish offset slot inserts from TTX kits). I don't want purely track focused set nor comfort/DD-only focused one. What i'd want - with comfort/performance bias closer to old one + ability to dial more camber without having to use pillow ball camber plates. I'm sure such kit can be custom built to order, but in such case price may be the one killing competitiveness , as by when money-no-object - why not Penskes?

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by ajc209

Yes and the next year they added roll bars, 10mm spacers and switched to Bilstein MDS. Total package gained 9 or 10 seconds.

Ill also added the standard spring rates were 140N and 180N so very very firm but needed for a racecar running 245 pirelli racing slicks.

Ive actually been in a 1st gen TMG ttx and it was driven by F1 driver Jolyon Palmer.

The roll cage existed from the first year. Regulations wouldn't allow them to race without a cage. Same for the spacers, otherwise the tires wouldn't fit. The spring rates that were used was a mistake and this was revealed the next year with the 10 seconds improvement. Anyone that has a slight idea about racing, knows that stiff springs are not ideal and they are a necessity only if you want to go super low and play with aero. The TMG's GT86 was always stock height and at that time they didn't even have aero. Just the silly duck style spoiler. I guess it was a conscious decision by the Germans to hold the car back and to not make it as competitive as other European cars. I cannot find another reason, because if TMG really wanted then they could build a real race car.

Anyway, that's all history and whatever Ohlins offers now it won't sell. Not because it is good or not good, but because people that could pay these money are turning now their heads to other car platforms.

[ajc209]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

The roll cage existed from the first year. Regulations wouldn't allow them to race without a cage. Same for the spacers, otherwise the tires wouldn't fit. The spring rates that were used was a mistake and this was revealed the next year with the 10 seconds improvement. Anyone that has a slight idea about racing knows that stiff springs are not ideal and they are a necessity only if you want to go super low and play with aero. The TMG GT86's were always stock height and at that time they didn't even have aero. Just the silly duck style spoiler. I guess it was a decision by the Germans to hold this car a bit back and not to make it as competitive with other European cars. I cannot find another reason, because if TMG really wanted then they could build a real race car.


Anyway, that's all history and whatever Ohlins has now it won't sell. Not because it is good or not good, but because people are turning now their heads to other platforms.

Roll bars in the UK = sway bars

They added stiffer sway bars, 10mm spacers, wider tyres as well as the bilstiens for the 2015 year. All of which, may or maynot have contributed to faster lap times. My money is on the tyres.

Wheels are oz ultraleggeras 17x8 +45 fit just fine without spacers even on stock suspension.

In the uk gt86 owners club forum I made a whole thread about the tmg cars. I suggest you have a read 👍

http://www.gt86ownersclub.co.uk/foru...835_page1.html

Now lets get back on topic!



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[nikitopo]

When you don't like something, then you say let's back on topic.

Here is the official announcement of the '14 car.
https://www.racingbytmg.com/tmg-gt86...mg-gt86-cs-v3/

The change was from Ohlins to Bilstein ('13 -> '14) and it was obligatory for all the TMG GT86 cars. Existing owners were offered a free upgrade. It was not even during 2015 as you mentioned. The only other change was the PFC brake discs. There was another official announcement that the 10 seconds improvement was mainly from the suspension. The stiff springs were not optimal.

I have never heard of changing sway bars, tires, or adding the spacers afterwards. Not at this period. Please provide official evidence from TMG if you think otherwise.

[ajc209]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

When you don't like something, then you say let's back on topic.

Here is the official announcement of the '14 car.
https://www.racingbytmg.com/tmg-gt86...mg-gt86-cs-v3/

The change was from Ohlins to Bilstein ('13 -> '14) and it was obligatory for all the TMG GT86 cars. Existing owners were offered a free upgrade. It was not even during 2015 as you mentioned. The only other change was the PFC brake discs. There was another official announcement that the 10 seconds improvement was mainly from the suspension. The stiff springs were not optimal.

I have never heard of changing sway bars, tires, or adding the spacers afterwards. Not at this period. Please provide official evidence from TMG if you think otherwise.

Its says in the link you provided, there are optional stabilizers. Otherwise known as sway bars or roll bars.

The improved lap times were combination of all mandatory and optional upgrades.

If you want to keep arguing. PM me so we can stop taking this thread off topic



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[nikitopo]

If people want to believe that Ohlins changed the spring rates based on user feedback wanting more comfort, then it is fine with me. I don't have to argue anything.

[Tor]

Why are you guys even comparing the TMG Öhlins and the Road and Track? The Bilstein they run now is not comparible to any consumer Bilstein product either. And as for spring rates the Bilstein is 14 kg/cm front and 18 kg/cm rear.

As for their spring rate selection for the MP20. I can only imagine they had a lot of 4 and 3 kg/cm springs in stock they wanted to get rid off. Every user feedback I've seen is complaining that they didn't keep the 6 kg setup. Personally I looked for MI20 but couldn't find any, so I bought something else instead.

[ajc209]

Originally Posted by Tor

Why are you guys even comparing the TMG Öhlins and the Road and Track? The Bilstein they run now is not comparible to any consumer Bilstein product either. And as for spring rates the Bilstein is 14 kg/cm front and 18 kg/cm rear.

As for their spring rate selection for the MP20. I can only imagine they had a lot of 4 and 3 kg/cm springs in stock they wanted to get rid off. Every user feedback I've seen is complaining that they didn't keep the 6 kg setup. Personally I looked for MI20 but couldn't find any, so I bought something else instead.

I wasnt tying to compare. Just correcting the false comment that the bilsteins alone reduced lap time on the tmg car when actually there were lots of changes if you look at the 2013 vs 2015 user manuals for the cars.

Few people that rebuild these road and track have said that the valving is as good as their high end dampers it jsut that they are single adjustable and dont have external reservoir to reduce costs. Im not sure about that but they are really really good.

Chris is aware of the negative feedback about the MP20 kit and keen to work with anyone on improving it. They have quite a large damping range so you can bump the rates quite a bit as with the MI20 kit.



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[nikitopo]

The specific Bilstein coilover has two set of springs in each damper. The one spring has a 3kg/cm rate and the other has the much higher rate as mentioned by Tor. The soft spring gives an appropriate body roll for the necessary weight transfer. Ohlins could not provide such a setup either in the TTX or the R&T product.

[ajc209]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

The specific Bilstein coilover has two set of springs in each damper. The one spring has a 3kg/cm rate and the other has the much higher rate as mentioned by Tor. The soft spring gives an appropriate body roll for the necessary weight transfer. Ohlins could not provide such a setup either in the TTX or the R&T product.

The Ohlins also had helper springs like many coilovers design for firm rate. Please get your facts right and read my thread:

http://www.gt86ownersclub.co.uk/foru...opic10835.html

The very first page has a picture of the ohlins ttx frobt and rear bith with helper springs.

All information on that thread is either from the user manuals or contacting TMG directly.

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[nikitopo]

Strange, I have not seen these helpers before. Since you say they are from the user manuals, I believe you.

[churchx]

Originally Posted by ajc209

..Chris is aware of the negative feedback about the MP20 kit and keen to work with anyone on improving it. They have quite a large damping range so you can bump the rates quite a bit as with the MI20

So extra set of stiffer springs (at least it sounds, that revalving won't be needed (needs to be inquired, if it really is same as that of old kit's)) still will add up to already not exactly cheapest price .. further making it less competitive to competitor offerings.
Imho what they should have done - keep both kits selling in parallel instead of discontinuing old one. Then they could have seen which kit actually fits average customer needs better by their votes with valet/numbers sold. Though i welcome their choice of making camplates optional (not enough to convince to buy new kit though). There are ones like me, disliking pillowball impact on NVH, and there are ones that would like to reuse their Raceseng's/Velox's/etc..

[Sleepypistonracing]

To take the discussion to the next level. If I were to use the Ohlins 4/3kg as a pure racing setup. What rates should I use (not considering the dampers needs to be revalved) I've seen some recommendations on 7/8 but it feels very soft in comparison to what other people are running on different cars (yes I know there is going to be a difference between different cars but a 100% difference?!) I'm running 235 AD08R and oem sway bars.

[ajc209]

Originally Posted by Sleepypistonracing

To take the discussion to the next level. If I were to use the Ohlins 4/3kg as a pure racing setup. What rates should I use (not considering the dampers needs to be revalved) I've seen some recommendations on 7/8 but it feels very soft in comparison to what other people are running on different cars (yes I know there is going to be a difference between different cars but a 100% difference?!) I'm running 235 AD08R and oem sway bars.

Probably better for RCE to answer, but I am using the stock 60N/60N MI20 kit with AD08R 235/40/18 and OEM sways. I like this setup, not too much roll but enough to get a feel for the grip levels. Also the softer rates mean crappy bumpy tracks are not an issue.

I think if you were go go for more grippy tyres like AD048s, then 8kg/8kg would help control body roll.

Is your car lighter than stock?