Innovate SC Install, Testing & Tuning

[Dezoris]

Originally Posted by Drift-Office

Surely you're not referring to me yeah? You're just projecting what I'm saying between the lines?

@swift996 : Nice ninja edit!


Bob @ Drift-Office, LLC

Projecting is an understatement.

[swift996]

Originally Posted by Drift-Office

Surely you're not referring to me yeah? You're just projecting what I'm saying between the lines?

@swift996 : Nice ninja edit!


Bob @ Drift-Office, LLC

I realized there wasn't an absolute truth to my argument so rather than get a ton of counters, I kindly retracted

[Brian@Vortech]

Originally Posted by Drift-Office

Again, whenever air is being compressed, heat will be generated. Heat is heat - "less heat" doesn't negate the fact that it's still heat and that is still my biggest contention of this kit, just saying. For those without E85, the reliability mod list is going to add quite a bit to it. My other question is that while this kit has been in dev for a year and rolled out in the rest of the world for months now, how is it that an IC kit hasn't been forthcoming as of yet?

Bob @ Drift-Office, LLC

You guys should listen to this man. I have no interest in bashing this kit, it looks like fits up nicely. However, by spending so much time on here, there is no way around it...I am a part of this community. The part that I have to comment on is the heat. Just like a centrifugal, just like a turbo, this is a compressor guys, not a refrigerator. Someone actually said in another post that the ΔT (temp difference pre-blower to post-blower) at 7.6psi was 23˚ Fahrenheit. This is an absolute impossibility. Even with 100% perfect isentropic compression (which is with no outside heat, no heatsoak, etc.; also impossible in an underhood automotive application), the absolute minimum amount of heat that can be generated by the creation of 7.6psi would be between 69˚-70˚ Fahrenheit. At a much more realistic 74% isentropic compression, the minimum heat generated would be between 94˚-95˚ Fahrenheit. This is without taking heatsoak and other things into consideration.
I am not saying this is unsafe, or won't work, or anything of this nature...just making sure people understand the reality of compressing air. I am also perfectly aware that my place of employment will skew people's opinion of my posting in this thread. That part is also understood. I don't want to derail anything, just put things more into proper perspective.

[s2d4]

Ohh, I am definitely listening and awaiting further info.

I like having lots of torque over a wider rpm range. The info so far is that:
Avo has more torque/power everywhere bar maybe 1st 1000 rpm from idle.
Twinscrew shines everywhere bar the last ~1500rpm.
Vortech is good for the last ~1500rpm over twinscrew but still way below Avo.
Yes, the different FI setups basically dictates how it will behave but I am happy to grab all the info and non of the bs.

Originally Posted by Drift-Office

I think that's the reason why many people who came into my shop wanting to purchase a Vortech ended up buying an AVO setup instead. The last thing I want to be accused of is to sell them something off the shelf just to make a margin, which I clearly see some of the other vendors doing, just because.

[sw20kosh]

Originally Posted by Brian@Vortech

You guys should listen to this man. I have no interest in bashing this kit, it looks like fits up nicely. However, by spending so much time on here, there is no way around it...I am a part of this community. The part that I have to comment on is the heat. Just like a centrifugal, just like a turbo, this is a compressor guys, not a refrigerator. Someone actually said in another post that the ΔT (temp difference pre-blower to post-blower) at 7.6psi was 23˚ Fahrenheit. This is an absolute impossibility. Even with 100% perfect isentropic compression (which is with no outside heat, no heatsoak, etc.; also impossible in an underhood automotive application), the absolute minimum amount of heat that can be generated by the creation of 7.6psi would be between 69˚-70˚ Fahrenheit. At a much more realistic 74% isentropic compression, the minimum heat generated would be between 94˚-95˚ Fahrenheit. This is without taking heatsoak and other things into consideration.
I am not saying this is unsafe, or won't work, or anything of this nature...just making sure people understand the reality of compressing air. I am also perfectly aware that my place of employment will skew people's opinion of my posting in this thread. That part is also understood. I don't want to derail anything, just put things more into proper perspective.

Not saying you are wrong and you seem to know a good deal about heat and efficiency but there is a reason Innovate was and is still out there on the hot dessert southern california tracks data logging and testing the system.

They actually did real world hot weather testing guys. When I was there talking to them at a few of the events, everything was running great and temps were in check but I would agree with Dezoris ... It would be pretty cool to see their data.

[Sportsguy83]

Originally Posted by sw20kosh

Not saying you are wrong and you seem to know a good deal about heat and efficiency but there is a reason Innovate was and is still out there on the hot dessert southern california tracks data logging and testing the system.

They actually did real world hot weather testing guys. When I was there talking to them at a few of the events, everything was running great and temps were in check but I would agree with Dezoris ... It would be pretty cool to see their data.

Yeah, although I have no doubt they are keeping a very close eye on it, its one thing for a rep to say yeah, its all good, its all in check!!!!! And another, ok we are seeing X and X and X for temperature and then you can decide personally if that is ok with you.

[s2d4]

Originally Posted by Sportsguy83

Yeah, although I have no doubt they are keeping a very close eye on it, its one thing for a rep to say yeah, its all good, its all in check!!!!! And another, ok we are seeing X and X and X for temperature and then you can decide personally if that is ok with you.

Have we actually seen this with all vendors so far?
I remember paul throwing numbers for some of the conditions his car has been through. Anyone else?

[Sportsguy83]

Originally Posted by s2d4

Have we actually seen this with all vendors so far?
I remember paul throwing numbers for some of the conditions his car has been through. Anyone else?

But that is not the point. The point is, have they been asked the question and what answer have they given? Its not typical to see this info posted out, or being asked, so I don't expect vendors to be posting this out like it is standard info, BUT when the question is asked, they should have direct answers.

[Calum]

Originally Posted by Brian@Vortech

You guys should listen to this man. I have no interest in bashing this kit, it looks like fits up nicely. However, by spending so much time on here, there is no way around it...I am a part of this community. The part that I have to comment on is the heat. Just like a centrifugal, just like a turbo, this is a compressor guys, not a refrigerator. Someone actually said in another post that the ΔT (temp difference pre-blower to post-blower) at 7.6psi was 23˚ Fahrenheit. This is an absolute impossibility. Even with 100% perfect isentropic compression (which is with no outside heat, no heatsoak, etc.; also impossible in an underhood automotive application), the absolute minimum amount of heat that can be generated by the creation of 7.6psi would be between 69˚-70˚ Fahrenheit. At a much more realistic 74% isentropic compression, the minimum heat generated would be between 94˚-95˚ Fahrenheit. This is without taking heatsoak and other things into consideration.
I am not saying this is unsafe, or won't work, or anything of this nature...just making sure people understand the reality of compressing air. I am also perfectly aware that my place of employment will skew people's opinion of my posting in this thread. That part is also understood. I don't want to derail anything, just put things more into proper perspective.

I've heard this so many times that I have to ask it. If the twin screw doesn't compress internally, does that change the efficiency equation?

[Brian@Vortech]

Originally Posted by Calum

I've heard this so many times that I have to ask it. If the twin screw doesn't compress internally, does that change the efficiency equation?

Twin screws are an actual compressor, they have male and female rotors and they do compress the air inside the compressor housing. Roots blowers have 2 of the same male rotors, and do not have the capability to compress inside the housing, they make the engine act as the compressor...and yes, it has a dramatic effect on efficiency. As a result, Centrifugals and Twin-Screws will always be much higher in efficiency than any roots-type unit. If this were a roots blower in question (which the Innovate unit is not), the heat generated at 7.6psi would be more in the area of 118˚-120˚F.

[buditjoenawan]

Originally Posted by Calum

I've heard this so many times that I have to ask it. If the twin screw doesn't compress internally, does that change the efficiency equation?

But it still compresses air right? Unbreakable laws of physics guys, compress air and you get heat. Full stop. Period. How you compress it doesn't matter in terms of the system generating heat.

budi

[s2d4]

Originally Posted by Sportsguy83

But that is not the point. The point is, have they been asked the question and what answer have they given? Its not typical to see this info posted out, or being asked, so I don't expect vendors to be posting this out like it is standard info, BUT when the question is asked, they should have direct answers.

Has anyone asked directly for that info? Did you ask yourself? Maybe I've missed it due to all the sideline drama some people always participate in. Haven't seen any temp logs from anyone yet.
Anyway, pretty sure I can just ask sprintex, for once the RHD guys here have better access to stuff rather than playing second fiddle to US counterparts with regard to some vendors.

As for all vendors marketing/claims, I take everything with a grain of salt until I see it for mysel even if there are a few honest vendors on here that I trust.

[Sportsguy83]

Originally Posted by s2d4

Has anyone asked directly for that info? Maybe I've missed it. Haven't seen any temp logs from anyone yet.
Anyway, pretty sure I can just ask sprintex, for once the RHD guys here have better access to stuff rather than playing second fiddle to US counterparts with regard to some vendors.

As for all vendors marketing/claims, I take everything with a grain of salt until I see it for mysel even if there are a few honest vendors on here that I trust.

I believe Dezoris has asked it repeatedly here. No big deal, just making an observation.

Off topic, which kit will you will get?

[s2d4]

Originally Posted by Sportsguy83

I believe Dezoris has asked it repeatedly here. No big deal, just making an observation.

Off topic, which kit will you will get?

I think he said he asked for a test unit which I said would be good for a community exercise. Not sure if I saw anything direct, at one stage it looked like he was asking bob for info in this thread.

Still not entirely sure, I need/want further info until I am comfortable with making a decision. Leaning towards turbocharging at this point..