Twins vs future competition

[WolfpackS2k]

I have no reservations about going back to an older car either. All the new cars these days aren't designed for the long run. Just look at all the electronic crap that breaks with age, not to mention the fading plastic trim and cloudy headlights.

I can realistically see myself going to a 987.2 Cayman S or an FD RX-7 down the road.

[R3d]

Originally Posted by regal

I just don't see it. Even BMW made a recent attempt with the 1-series (although not really affordable) and it was a fail.

The new Miata will probably outsell them in 2015. I know the twins had a good first year, but a really profitable platform needs to sell like that every year.

Now I hope the twins break the mold and turn the industry upside down selling like hot cakes but the market just isn't there.

A lot of people think Nissan and Honda will throw their hats into this territory but there are no signs, a new platform takes 3 -5 years and without even concepts being shown the other OEMs just aren't interested.

There will be more cars like the upcoming Alpha 4c, but those are $60k cars. Even lotus who once sold the Elise here for under $40k is going up market.


I think the main thing will be Miata striking back with a great car but open top roadsters are a different market than a sports coupe buyer. The real slap in the face will be the open top twin vs the new Miata, anyone think that will go well ?

Youl never sit me in a mazda or a post 70`s chevy ... ever ever. but then there are ppl l ike my brother in law who buys green under-body neon's for his rust red SERspecV.

For me the handling part of this car drew me in, the close to 50/50 balance and the extra low gravity. And those are the features that makes this car unique and a first of its kind, it will make this car the bench mark for comparison kinda like the honda vtec IMO.

At the end of the day all models will get sold, hey you know they sell a few Nissan cube every year ! Anything is possible XD!

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by R3d

For me the handling part of this car drew me in, the close to 50/50 balance

54/46 isn't that close to 50/50 for an FR car...

and the extra low gravity. And those are the features that makes this car unique and a first of its kind,

late-80s/early-90s S13 240SX...

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by R3d

Youl never sit me in a mazda or a post 70`s chevy ... ever ever. but then there are ppl l ike my brother in law who buys green under-body neon's for his rust red SERspecV.

For me the handling part of this car drew me in, the close to 50/50 balance and the extra low gravity. And those are the features that makes this car unique and a first of its kind, it will make this car the bench mark for comparison kinda like the honda vtec IMO.

At the end of the day all models will get sold, hey you know they sell a few Nissan cube every year ! Anything is possible XD!

the miata has had better weight distribution and lower cog and arguably better handling but despite thats what drew you to the frs and you wont step foot in a mazda?

Originally Posted by ZDan

54/46 isn't that close to 50/50 for an FR car...

late-80s/early-90s S13 240SX...

was the cog of the 240 really all that low?

[Be-Are-Zee]

Originally Posted by Levi

VW Bluesport
Porsche 550
Porsche 981
Audi R4
Alfa 4C
Alfa Spider
Nissan (instead of 370 Z)
Renault Alpine
BMW Z2 (FWD)
MX-5/RX-7 (new, hopefully coupé)
Honda "S2000" (hopefully)


I see only Mazda RX-7 and Honda lacking.

This - the new rotary will not be lacking. They already have the 16b pushing 300 hp non FI on a 1.6L. That's insanely small lightweight engine with huge output...now to just solve the mpg issue.

[FRSBRZGT86FAN]

Originally Posted by suaveflooder

Its funny that you use the phrase "swan song" as I just used it on my ebay motor whatever page in that GT-R competition.

I don't think that the twins are the last of their kind....only time will tell, but companies now see that there is a niche for these types of cars.

As far as being a "swan song," I feel that it wasn't for the type of car so much as for scion. It hasn't been doing well lately and it needed a hell marry which in turn was it's "last beautiful song" before it died, or "swan song" :happy0180:

Yea the entire market is now taking notice after the FRS/BRZ came out, RWD, efficient cars will make a comeback this will be a niche market, right now the only rwd balanced fun cars I can think of in this price range are the BRZ/FRS, miata, and base mustang V6 but that's slowly become way too pricy.

[FRSBRZGT86FAN]

Originally Posted by Be-Are-Zee

This - the new rotary will not be lacking. They already have the 16b pushing 300 hp non FI on a 1.6L. That's insanely small lightweight engine with huge output...now to just solve the mpg issue.

And Reliability burning oil isn't very good for emissions.

[zephyr69]

Originally Posted by fatoni

the miata has had better weight distribution and lower cog and arguably better handling but despite thats what drew you to the frs and you wont step foot in a mazda?


was the cog of the 240 really all that low?

Weight distribution depends on the layout and power of car. Theres no such thing as a better weight distribution, only an ideal weight distribution. Tada-san has already stated that 50/50 is not the best weight distribution for the 86. 53/47 was the most ideal for 86 based on its setup/layout. And no, mazda miata does not have a lower cog. If you look at all the videos, the miata has significantly more body roll compared to the 86. The 86 has one of the lowest cog of all cars in the market.

Quote from Jalopnik for your reference:

"The FR-S/FT-86 has a lower center of gravity than the Porsche Cayman, Nissan GT-R and Mitsubishi Lancer Evo. The F/R weight distribution is 53/47 and the cD of 0.27 is better than a Honda CR-Z and almost as good as a Toyota Prius."

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by zephyr69

Weight distribution depends on the layout and power of car. Theres no such thing as a better weight distribution, only an ideal weight distribution. Tada-san has already stated that 50/50 is not the best weight distribution for the 86. 53/47 was the most ideal for 86 based on its setup/layout. And no, mazda miata does not have a lower cog. If you look at all the videos, the miata has significantly more body roll compared to the 86. The 86 has one of the lowest cog of all cars in the market.

Quote from Jalopnik for your reference:

"The FR-S/FT-86 has a lower center of gravity than the Porsche Cayman, Nissan GT-R and Mitsubishi Lancer Evo. The F/R weight distribution is 53/47 and the cD of 0.27 is better than a Honda CR-Z and almost as good as a Toyota Prius."

a lot of what you are saying is counter productive or marketing hype and wrong.

if there is an ideal weight distribution, there is a better and worse weight distribution. pick which concept you want to believe in. the frs does not have a weight distribution of 53/47 unless you have two people in the car. do you believe having two people in the car is ideal for auto sports?

body roll isnt an indication to the center of gravity. its a combination of spring rate and the distance from cog to the roll axis. even if it was, im not talking about the current miata. a stock miata from the 90s has a lower cog than the frs. thats a fact. it is also a fact that the frs does not have the lowest cog in the market.

the cD isnt an indicator of performance. in fact, if you tried to equate it to one, its the higher cD cars that are more performance oriented. ever notice how things like the prius, ls430, mazda3 and other commuter cars have very low numbers while things like an f1 car has a cD of about 1.5?

[zephyr69]

Originally Posted by fatoni

a lot of what you are saying is counter productive or marketing hype and wrong.

if there is an ideal weight distribution, there is a better and worse weight distribution. pick which concept you want to believe in. the frs does not have a weight distribution of 53/47 unless you have two people in the car. do you believe having two people in the car is ideal for auto sports?

body roll isnt an indication to the center of gravity. its a combination of spring rate and the distance from cog to the roll axis. even if it was, im not talking about the current miata. a stock miata from the 90s has a lower cog than the frs. thats a fact. it is also a fact that the frs does not have the lowest cog in the market.

the cD isnt an indicator of performance. in fact, if you tried to equate it to one, its the higher cD cars that are more performance oriented. ever notice how things like the prius, ls430, mazda3 and other commuter cars have very low numbers while things like an f1 car has a cD of about 1.5?

Firstly, I never said that the FRS has the lowest cog in the market. I said one of the lowest. With cars like the Lexus LFA being even lower.

Secondly, I never said the cD has anything to do with the performance of the car. It was just part of an article I quickly took from jalopnik. Apologies for the confusion there.

Finally, how are my statements counter productive? lol. Miata is one of the best driver's car ever made, I have driven one and admit it. But the Miata does not have a lower cog than an FRS, even in stock form. There is a difference between marketing gimmick and a blatant lie. These things can be proven with numbers, so lying is outright dumb. 50/50 weight distribution is NOT the best for ALL cars, that is a common misconception. Body roll is one of the indicators for cog, although it is affected being the suspension of the car. The FRS has lower cog than a porsche cayman and 0.6 inches higher than an LFA. The cog for a Miata is NOT lower than a porsche cayman. And.... why would Toyota base the FRS weight distribution on how many people are in the cabin? I don't even know what to say to that... So do they predict how much the passenger might weigh too? Give extra weight to the back on the Scion FRS in comparison to the Toyota 86 because Americans on average weigh more than Japanese people?


We all love the Miata, it is an amazing car, even till this day. But the FRS has it beat in almost all conditions. The FRS is basically the closest thing to a modern day Miata.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by zephyr69

Firstly, I never said that the FRS has the lowest cog in the market. I said one of the lowest. With cars like the Lexus LFA being even lower.

Secondly, I never said the cD has anything to do with the performance of the car. It was just part of an article I quickly took from jalopnik. Apologies for the confusion there.

Finally, how are my statements counter productive? lol. Miata is one of the best driver's car ever made, I have driven one and admit it. But the Miata does not have a lower cog than an FRS, even in stock form. There is a difference between marketing gimmick and a blatant lie. These things can be proven with numbers, so lying is outright dumb. 50/50 weight distribution is NOT the best for ALL cars, that is a common misconception. Body roll is one of the indicators for cog, although it is affected being the suspension of the car. The FRS has lower cog than a porsche cayman and 0.6 inches higher than an LFA. The cog for a Miata is NOT lower than a porsche cayman. And.... why would Toyota base the FRS weight distribution on how many people are in the cabin? I don't even know what to say to that... So do they predict how much the passenger might weigh too? Give extra weight to the back on the Scion FRS in comparison to the Toyota 86 because Americans on average weigh more than Japanese people?


We all love the Miata, it is an amazing car, even till this day. But the FRS has it beat in almost all conditions. The FRS is basically the closest thing to a modern day Miata.

yeah i misread that part so apologies.

also, no sweat. it was just a little confusing.

when i said counterproductive i was just saying that it doesnt make sense to say that there is an ideal weight distribution while saying there is no better (and by virtue a worse) weight distribution. the frs weight balance given is with a couple people in the car to make the numbers look better. thats the marketing im talking about. i think it has a balance of 56/44 iirc.

the current miata probably does not have a lower cog but the na miata and what i would imagine are many other cars throughout history (like the corvette ever since 84ish) have a lower cog than the frs. you can look at the nhtsa rollover data to extrapolate some data if you dont believe me. cog by itself has no bearing on the roll of a car. its fundamentally based on the distance between the cog and the roll axis. the whole macpherson thing may very well be more a detriment to that than the slighly lower cog is an advantage but thats speculative.

[DriftZen]

Originally Posted by R3d

Youl never sit me in a mazda or a post 70`s chevy ... ever ever. but then there are ppl l ike my brother in law who buys green under-body neon's for his rust red SERspecV.

For me the handling part of this car drew me in, the close to 50/50 balance and the extra low gravity. And those are the features that makes this car unique and a first of its kind, it will make this car the bench mark for comparison kinda like the honda vtec IMO.

At the end of the day all models will get sold, hey you know they sell a few Nissan cube every year ! Anything is possible XD!

Why no post 70's chevy? What about trucks?

I think the next mustang is going to handle very well and be light(er) (I hope). Not sure how closely that relates to chevy but my thought was chevy > ford.

[R3d]

Originally Posted by fatoni

the miata has had better weight distribution and lower cog and arguably better handling but despite thats what drew you to the frs and you wont step foot in a mazda?


was the cog of the 240 really all that low?

ohh im not talking about specs, I just dont like mazda at all period. The ONLY mazda I would take is the RX7 nothing else!

[R3d]

Originally Posted by DriftZen

Why no post 70's chevy? What about trucks?

I think the next mustang is going to handle very well and be light(er) (I hope). Not sure how closely that relates to chevy but my thought was chevy > ford.

Cuz I like the old muscle cars but after the 70`s I feel the styling gets stale or odd !

And you make a good argument for trucks, I would definitely go American for a truck but to me trucks aren't a type of vehicle that I think about lol XD