Twins vs future competition

[serialk11r]

Where cars go in the long term probably depends on where you are, in the US I somehow don't see systematic power grid upgrades to really handle a full electric fleet, and so we could still be running liquid fuel for quite some time, and I think it will be at least 30 years before fuel cells or thermoelectric generators can hit the efficiency, power density, and cost levels needed to replace mechanical engines, seeing how they don't even have such things built in the lab yet.

The Prius is not pointless. First of all diesel fuel is more dense so you automatically get 10% more mpg. Second of all, diesel engines have a severe NOx problem, low power density, and are not as inherently efficient as people think. The only reason they seem to do well is because efficiency improvements in gas engines are only just starting to come along. Finally, the Prius is a rather large vehicle compared to your typical compact and can carry a pretty large amount of stuff.

In the somewhat near term, if ultracapacitors can get to 1/4 the energy density of lead acid batteries, you could run a 30 pound capacitor bank like the one Mazda uses, cut the lead acid battery size down a little to recover some of the weight gain, and have a nice extra 30hp or so on tap.

EDIT: Some ultracaps are already at 1/2 lead acid battery energy density!

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by regal

As far as hybrid technology it adds significant weight to the car, it shortens the lifespan, with the expensive batteries they are almost disposable cars.

Ridiculous, statement is ridiculous.

I still see lots of first gen Prius' on the road, still see 1st gen Insights etc. Many have batteries that last up to 7-10 years or more and after that, it's simply a battery replacement and if done by outside ventures besides the dealership it's like 1/4th the cost. Shortens lifespan? Disposable cars? That's not just patently false, it's ridiculous.

Also, what's significant weight? 150-180lbs? If that's what you think of as significant weight, you better not have any passengers in your car. Like stated earlier the ENTIRE IMA system in the CR-Z is only 176lbs.

DriftZen: The one way a hybrid is more eco friendly than a TDI is if it's something like a VOLT and you A) live in an area of the world where your electrical grid is powered by something other than coal or natural gas (like Oregon or WA) and B) you live 30 or miles or less from your work place in which 90% of your miles will be all electric. A friend of mine with a Volt calculated his mileage to be 3016 miles per gallon. Not bad.

[Levi]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

Whoa, I didn't know about the Audi R4, that thing looks awesome! I wouldn't buy an Audi because of reliability/maintenance but that is a nice move on their part. The Alfa 4C is great but doesn't have a stick shift

The way Honda and Mazda have been going about things, I highly doubt anything interesting from them will appear. The whole industry is pushing bore/stroke ratio as low as possible, but Honda and Mazda are taking this to the max. Since they are relatively high volume they don't want to go forced induction since that eats up profit. Honda has no performance motors anymore (a shame) and pretty much publicly said they "can't" build them anymore, and Mazda's last real performance motor was the rotary, which they still haven't fixed. Their Skyactive stuff is nice though. I'd bet money that the NSX is just going to have a pretty vanilla V6 with maybe a few tweaks, and they're going to try to slide it by advertising how much horsepower the car has with the hybrid system, nevermind that the same motor can be found in an Accord or Odyssey.

I think Toyota is our best hope, they still have some balls. LFA, this 86, and supposedly some new cars in the pipeline. This car doesn't have epic power but the flat 4 is hard to work with because of space constraints, I think of it as a good effort, regardless of how much input Toyota actually had in the development.



Oh come on, that shouldn't be a concern. The Prius is intentionally built with that lag, the same way most cars these days don't give you any power at all when you give the throttle a quick jab.

My Spyder has no traction control, no limited slip, and an extremely stupid ECU, so you can imagine my surprise when I had my first Prius drive... it's completely different. You jab the gas, it intentionally waits for a bit, and then revs the engine up, and then immediately cuts power for several seconds if the wheels so much as brush a little pothole that makes them slip an inch. The brake function is very weird because the pedal controls the mechanical brake and regen together, but hey it is extremely simple for people who are used to just mashing 2 pedals in succession. They even have an electric motor stalling in drive so that you can crawl the same way you do in an automatic that's idling in drive.


Anyways the good news is that mild hybrid setups can allow longer gearing thanks to the extra torque, which would alleviate some of the raping that manuals get on the EPA test and the compromises made between fuel economy, emissions, and lazy driver accomodations. Bad news is that until it becomes more common we're gonna get price gouged ala CRZ. My personal hope is a new hardtop/targa MR2 with a 1.5-1.6L NR/ZR where they do the courtesy of giving it stronger rods and slightly different cams so it can hit 8000rpm and make some reasonable power. They went through the trouble of changing the rods on the 1ZZ-FEDs found in Celica/MR2, which brought the rev limit up to a screaming [sarcasm] 6700 rpm and a furious 140hp. No hybrid would make retrofitting a rather challenging and interesting project, but it would be nice to have that stock. With a more modern combustion chamber/intake tract, variable displacement oil pump, hopefully such an engine can make a solid 160-170hp despite emissions regulations.

The R4 project was put on hold. It looks like its development can continue, Porsche will have some changes in the next years.

Honda has said they are willing to bring a Civic Type-R, and it is coming with 1.6l I4, for WTCC and they want to be the N-Ring time of the fastest FWD car, which is Renault Megane RS. As for the NSX my hopes are very high. Honda the in bits of information I have, the NSX is to set new standards. While on stright line it might not be fast as GT-R, tt will be very very fast around any track. The NSX gets a "new" NA H/R V6 (+9,000 RPM redline?). Plus to that is get hybrid technology that will prodide a large amount of torque, it is to drive on electric power only for a limited range, and of course it will have AWD and AWS. The car has the potential to be even faster than 911 GT3 while more green and thus a better daily driver.

BMW/Toyota sportscar is to be presented @ Tokio in the end of the year.

[serialk11r]

It would be nice if Honda showed up with something more than a spiced up J35 but I have my doubts. All it takes is some forged rods, upping the rev limiter a little, and they'll have nearly 400hp on tap already, and so my guess is they're going to do that. I don't trust the rumors about the high rev engines coming, but I'd love to be proven wrong.

[thill]

Originally Posted by regal

And a complete antithesis to what the Toyobaru is all about. If the Tesla is truly the future the Toyobaru is a Swan Song, the last of its kind.

I'm glad I bought a twin before a hybrid, electric vehicle or other car full of 200 lbs of toxic flammable batteries becomes the only choice.

I love the previous poster who said the Prius is pointless compared to a TDI VW, now there is even a Chevy Cruze Diesel, people are already reporting it matches a Prius on the highway mpg and it is a big car. We had diesel VW Golfs in the '80s that easily got 55 mpg for 400k miles, the early 90's Honda Civic VX did over 45 mpg for 300k miles.

As far as that 240z video, looks like Nissan is just right around the corner for a release , more like 5 years and the board will consider it!

I don't see any reason why a lightweight fully electric sports car cannot be built. When? Hard to say, but the possibility truly exists.

[5th 86]

Do not worry i am working on the flux capacitor and mr. Fusion on my free time...
Ah crap i forgot to take my meds

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by regal

I just don't see it. Even BMW made a recent attempt with the 1-series (although not really affordable) and it was a fail.

The new Miata will probably outsell them in 2015. I know the twins had a good first year, but a really profitable platform needs to sell like that every year.

Now I hope the twins break the mold and turn the industry upside down selling like hot cakes but the market just isn't there.

A lot of people think Nissan and Honda will throw their hats into this territory but there are no signs, a new platform takes 3 -5 years and without even concepts being shown the other OEMs just aren't interested.

There will be more cars like the upcoming Alpha 4c, but those are $60k cars. Even lotus who once sold the Elise here for under $40k is going up market.


I think the main thing will be Miata striking back with a great car but open top roadsters are a different market than a sports coupe buyer. The real slap in the face will be the open top twin vs the new Miata, anyone think that will go well ?

It's hard to say that BMW tried with the 1 Series. For all the compromises you had to make (compared to the 3 Series) all it saved you was around 150lbs. Not much of a trade off for a more cramped interior and ugly exterior.

Using the fuel economy standards (CAFE, etc) is a poor excuse, as these cars don't sell in large enough numbers to hurt the corporate average. The stated 160kg of CO2 per mile isn't some rule they had to adhere to, rather it was a voluntary thing. (I believe to fit into a lower tax bracket in the idiotic European taxing structure).

I'm against any sort of hybrid assistance system unless it can be kept under 150lb and cost no more than an extra $1000 to the cost of a car. Modern automobiles are already complex enough as it is and as they continually get more complex the auto industry becomes more of a throw away society (like cell phones). When all that crap breaks nobody will want to pay to maintain it.

KISS

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by regal

I love the previous poster who said the Prius is pointless compared to a TDI VW, now there is even a Chevy Cruze Diesel, people are already reporting it matches a Prius on the highway mpg and it is a big car.

Some people will (have, actually) also report that their FR-S/BRZ matches Corvettes at the track.

Go to Fuelly.com and have a look at what these cars *really* get for mileage. Mid to upper 30s average for TDI and Cruze diesel, with outliers up to 48. Mid to upper 40s average for Prius, with outliers up to 70(!). Take into account the fact that diesel costs more (in the U.S. anyway) and emits 14.4% more CO2 per gallon and then decide if hybrids are "pointless" based on something other than preconceived notions reinforced by cherry-picked anecdotal reports.

[f0rge]

Don't discount the new for 2015 mustang, it's going to be significantly lighter, finally gets an IRS and come with turbo 4 power. My buddy's Focus ST with the same engine put down 233fwhp and 266fwtq bone stock.

If they can keep the chassis under 3100lbs for the 4cyl and under 3200lbs for the V6/V8 it'll be quite the performer.

[Scenic Driver]

I had a 2010 Golf TDI, I put 100k miles on it and only got around 37 MPG. The only time I saw mid to high 40s was on a long road trip where there wasn't any traffic.

Drive above 65 mph and the milage goes down, if you have to do a lot of slowing down and speeding up like I do on my commute is goes down even more, put decent tires on it that aren't LRR and it goes down some more. If it's a city only car forget about it, you would be lucky to see the mileage get into the 30's.

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

I'm against any sort of hybrid assistance system unless it can be kept under 150lb and cost no more than an extra $1000 to the cost of a car. Modern automobiles are already complex enough as it is and as they continually get more complex the auto industry becomes more of a throw away society (like cell phones). When all that crap breaks nobody will want to pay to maintain it.

KISS

150 pounds is very easy, but 1000 dollars isn't (with an oem system where everything is integrated, I'm pretty sure you can cut the mass increase to just the motor and electronics since you can throw out alternator, old battery, and starter. Power electronics are a ridiculous ripoff right now and a lot of companies charge obscene amounts of money for rather lousy motors. After some kind of price war it might come down to 2000 bucks instead of 3-4k. I think it's said that Honda IMA is under 2000 bucks but they have only 10 hp motors.

[WolfpackS2k]

If that's the case I wouldn't want it then

[serialk11r]

Seeing how people readily pay 2k for a measly power increase that brings with it higher operating cost and headache, if they start offering 20-30hp motors instead of 10 then an appreciable increase in power, a ridiculous amount of torque and smoother low rpm operation, and more fuel economy to the tune of 3000 bucks sounds like an excellent deal to me.

[Turbowned]

If nothing interesting comes out by the time my BRZ is paid off, I'll sell it and buy an air-cooled 911 or a 5-6yr old Aston Martin and buy whatever new bland sedan is out to maintain a reliable daily. I have no reservations about going back to an old car as long as I have one new car in the stable.