Twins vs future competition

[thill]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

Don't fear hybrid, embrace it. Hybrid =/= Prius.

The only aspect of the Twins that is a "swan song" is the petrol-only powerplant. The fun/light/rwd sport coupes of the future will see IMA's, Start/Stop, Electric motors, regenerative braking etc etc as part of the powerplant. It is the way of the future and I honestly embrace it.

There's also a multitude of fun and efficient things they can do with electric motors and/or electric motor assist. The sports car future isn't bleak, nor is this a swan song... it's only bleak until all that technology improves and comes WAY down in cost where they can implement it affordably into entry-level-fun-cars. Until then, the sports cars of the future (that will be hybrids) will be out of most our price ranges.

I don't see why my car should:
1: have the engine running at a stop light
2: burn gasoline to coast through the shopping mall parking lot
3: not capture kinetic energy through braking.

IMA (integrated motor assist) setups like that in the CR-Z are under 180lbs in their entirety. I see no reason why a car like the TWINS cannot exist in the future still making 200+hp but instead get 40mpg around town and/or 45+mpg freeway. Uh.. yes please.

I completely agree with this post.

[Xenocide117]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

Don't fear hybrid, embrace it. Hybrid =/= Prius.

The only aspect of the Twins that is a "swan song" is the petrol-only powerplant. The fun/light/rwd sport coupes of the future will see IMA's, Start/Stop, Electric motors, regenerative braking etc etc as part of the powerplant. It is the way of the future and I honestly embrace it.

There's also a multitude of fun and efficient things they can do with electric motors and/or electric motor assist. The sports car future isn't bleak, nor is this a swan song... it's only bleak until all that technology improves and comes WAY down in cost where they can implement it affordably into entry-level-fun-cars. Until then, the sports cars of the future (that will be hybrids) will be out of most our price ranges.

I don't see why my car should:
1: have the engine running at a stop light
2: burn gasoline to coast through the shopping mall parking lot
3: not capture kinetic energy through braking.

IMA (integrated motor assist) setups like that in the CR-Z are under 180lbs in their entirety. I see no reason why a car like the TWINS cannot exist in the future still making 200+hp but instead get 40mpg around town and/or 45+mpg freeway. Uh.. yes please.

200 hp, 45 mpg, AND ALL THE TORQUE!

[rice_classic]

I honestly thought I was spouting heresy with that post. I'm glad others agree.

[DriftZen]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

Don't fear hybrid, embrace it. Hybrid =/= Prius.

The only aspect of the Twins that is a "swan song" is the petrol-only powerplant. The fun/light/rwd sport coupes of the future will see IMA's, Start/Stop, Electric motors, regenerative braking etc etc as part of the powerplant. It is the way of the future and I honestly embrace it.

There's also a multitude of fun and efficient things they can do with electric motors and/or electric motor assist. The sports car future isn't bleak, nor is this a swan song... it's only bleak until all that technology improves and comes WAY down in cost where they can implement it affordably into entry-level-fun-cars. Until then, the sports cars of the future (that will be hybrids) will be out of most our price ranges.

I don't see why my car should:
1: have the engine running at a stop light
2: burn gasoline to coast through the shopping mall parking lot
3: not capture kinetic energy through braking.

IMA (integrated motor assist) setups like that in the CR-Z are under 180lbs in their entirety. I see no reason why a car like the TWINS cannot exist in the future still making 200+hp but instead get 40mpg around town and/or 45+mpg freeway. Uh.. yes please.

I definitely agree with most of this post. That being said, its going to be a *while* (IMO) before we see any decent hybrid budget sports cars. There really is nothing wrong with an electric motor helping out the gas engine, and I think "hybrid" actually suits a sports car platform better than it does for a consumer car. Personally I wouldn't buy a hybrid commuter car simply because I'm not sold its more environmentally friendly, when a prius gets ~50mpg on fuelly while a volkswagen golf gets ~40-45 - all those batteries and electric processing for a measly 5mpg over the golf? Really?

Anyway, just a little side tangent, but I definitely agree.

[DM7]

Originally Posted by Rampage

Toyota and Subaru drew a line in the sand and stuck to their guns. They produced a minimalist sporty coupe and kept fairly close to their original vision. I give them props for that. But look how many people on these forums are complaining because the cars lack all those very things.

I honestly do not know if anyone else will try to make a car like the FT86 again but I hope some other manufacturers will step up.

Tada really pushed to make the 86 a car for enthusiasts designed by enthusiasts. He knew that true enthusiasts would understand the compromises that had to be made in the features and luxuries department to be able to sell a car that is so focused at such a low price point.

It's too bad that people complain about the lack of features in the 86 because it means they are unhappy with it. They really should have done their homework and purchased a vehicle that suits their needs. Although I'm glad they boosted the sales numbers.

I think that to be able to bring these types of vehicles to the public requires support from the head of the company. Toyota's CEO Akio Toyoda is a racing enthusiast and was responsible for keeping the LFA project alive and chances are was a supporter of the 86 project that was managed by Tetsuya Tada who prevented other departments from diluting the 86 design.

I think Nissan would be one of the only candidates for an 86 competitor. Nissan has Kazutoshi Mizuno who lead the GT-R project and I think would be perfect for managing a future Silvia/SX project.

[Rayme]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

Don't fear hybrid, embrace it. Hybrid =/= Prius.

The only aspect of the Twins that is a "swan song" is the petrol-only powerplant. The fun/light/rwd sport coupes of the future will see IMA's, Start/Stop, Electric motors, regenerative braking etc etc as part of the powerplant. It is the way of the future and I honestly embrace it.

There's also a multitude of fun and efficient things they can do with electric motors and/or electric motor assist. The sports car future isn't bleak, nor is this a swan song... it's only bleak until all that technology improves and comes WAY down in cost where they can implement it affordably into entry-level-fun-cars. Until then, the sports cars of the future (that will be hybrids) will be out of most our price ranges.

I don't see why my car should:
1: have the engine running at a stop light
2: burn gasoline to coast through the shopping mall parking lot
3: not capture kinetic energy through braking.

IMA (integrated motor assist) setups like that in the CR-Z are under 180lbs in their entirety. I see no reason why a car like the TWINS cannot exist in the future still making 200+hp but instead get 40mpg around town and/or 45+mpg freeway. Uh.. yes please.

Yup, every car should have a hybrid powerplant today. I'd love a 200 hp Hybrid synergy drive, fr-s with 6 spd manual.

[Zeus]

If you're going to make a hybrid sports car, just pleeeease don't make it lag between switching from electric to gas. I drove a friend's Prius and that split second delay was like nails on a chalkboard.

Also the demographic for an affordable rwd sports car is just that: people who want an affordable rwd drive sports car. There's already a car for everything else, techy city bangers, hot hatches, luxury sports coupes, etc.

I agree with the posters saying modern emission standards, safety standards, "fleet mpg" targets are holding these cars back. A lot of these things I think SHOULD be present in a modern car, but how they are being put into practice is tainted with political bs. Regardless these regulations are not going away and automakers need to adapt.

I think it comes down to is there room in an auto maker's business plan to make an enthusiasts' car. A good sports car is stripped down, pure, and focused imo. Too much tech, too much luxury, and it distracts from what you want to achieve or just adds cost. A purpose built platform is best; sure you might have a 2+2, a coupe, and roadster. But trying to grind a sport car out of a platform which is shared with a sedan and crossover will never give you the same results as starting from scratch.

With that said I think there's plenty of room for hybrids in sports cars. This tech will succeed not just because it increases mpg or whatever but because it's better. No lag turbos, low end e-torque, stuff like that. These things will arrive but I don't think they will be in a "cheaper" sports car for a few years.

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by Levi

VW Bluesport
Porsche 550
Porsche 981
Audi R4
Alfa 4C
Alfa Spider
Nissan (instead of 370 Z)
Renault Alpine
BMW Z2 (FWD)
MX-5/RX-7 (new, hopefully coupé)
Honda "S2000" (hopefully)


I see only Mazda RX-7 and Honda lacking.

Whoa, I didn't know about the Audi R4, that thing looks awesome! I wouldn't buy an Audi because of reliability/maintenance but that is a nice move on their part. The Alfa 4C is great but doesn't have a stick shift

The way Honda and Mazda have been going about things, I highly doubt anything interesting from them will appear. The whole industry is pushing bore/stroke ratio as low as possible, but Honda and Mazda are taking this to the max. Since they are relatively high volume they don't want to go forced induction since that eats up profit. Honda has no performance motors anymore (a shame) and pretty much publicly said they "can't" build them anymore, and Mazda's last real performance motor was the rotary, which they still haven't fixed. Their Skyactive stuff is nice though. I'd bet money that the NSX is just going to have a pretty vanilla V6 with maybe a few tweaks, and they're going to try to slide it by advertising how much horsepower the car has with the hybrid system, nevermind that the same motor can be found in an Accord or Odyssey.

I think Toyota is our best hope, they still have some balls. LFA, this 86, and supposedly some new cars in the pipeline. This car doesn't have epic power but the flat 4 is hard to work with because of space constraints, I think of it as a good effort, regardless of how much input Toyota actually had in the development.

Originally Posted by Zeus

If you're going to make a hybrid sports car, just pleeeease don't make it lag between switching from electric to gas. I drove a friend's Prius and that split second delay was like nails on a chalkboard.

Oh come on, that shouldn't be a concern. The Prius is intentionally built with that lag, the same way most cars these days don't give you any power at all when you give the throttle a quick jab.

My Spyder has no traction control, no limited slip, and an extremely stupid ECU, so you can imagine my surprise when I had my first Prius drive... it's completely different. You jab the gas, it intentionally waits for a bit, and then revs the engine up, and then immediately cuts power for several seconds if the wheels so much as brush a little pothole that makes them slip an inch. The brake function is very weird because the pedal controls the mechanical brake and regen together, but hey it is extremely simple for people who are used to just mashing 2 pedals in succession. They even have an electric motor stalling in drive so that you can crawl the same way you do in an automatic that's idling in drive.


Anyways the good news is that mild hybrid setups can allow longer gearing thanks to the extra torque, which would alleviate some of the raping that manuals get on the EPA test and the compromises made between fuel economy, emissions, and lazy driver accomodations. Bad news is that until it becomes more common we're gonna get price gouged ala CRZ. My personal hope is a new hardtop/targa MR2 with a 1.5-1.6L NR/ZR where they do the courtesy of giving it stronger rods and slightly different cams so it can hit 8000rpm and make some reasonable power. They went through the trouble of changing the rods on the 1ZZ-FEDs found in Celica/MR2, which brought the rev limit up to a screaming [sarcasm] 6700 rpm and a furious 140hp. No hybrid would make retrofitting a rather challenging and interesting project, but it would be nice to have that stock. With a more modern combustion chamber/intake tract, variable displacement oil pump, hopefully such an engine can make a solid 160-170hp despite emissions regulations.

[Wolfking]

Originally Posted by regal

I don't think anything better is going to come along.

It seems you have yet to watch the Jay Leno 240Z revamp video! I'm awaiting the arrival of this car. It may very well replace my FRS... (not holding my breath for this of course!)

[regal]

As far as hybrid technology it adds significant weight to the car, it shortens the lifespan, with the expensive batteries they are almost disposable cars.

Look at the 240sx, 20 years later folks of all types from teenagers to retirees are restoring them and tuning them. You won't be able to do that with a hybrid. 25+ years of moding and enjoyment are a big part of the appeal of the Twins.

[thill]

Forget gas/battery hybrid. The future is full electric aka Tesla. Way more hp and tq to the wheels (all four) without power loss and engine wear.

[Zeus]

Originally Posted by thill

Forget gas/battery hybrid. The future is full electric aka Tesla. Way more hp and tq to the wheels (all four) without power loss and engine wear.

The future is electric cars that drive themselves haha. Drive a real gas engine while you can!

[Zeus]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

Oh come on, that shouldn't be a concern. The Prius is intentionally built with that lag, the same way most cars these days don't give you any power at all when you give the throttle a quick jab.

Agreed, but my point is that if you put it in a sports car a good hybrid powerplant shouldn't be a compromise. I have no idea how the CR-Z drives.

IMO for the life cycle of the twins any legit competition will have gas engines.

That baby porsche/audi/VW platform looks curious....

[regal]

Originally Posted by thill

Forget gas/battery hybrid. The future is full electric aka Tesla. Way more hp and tq to the wheels (all four) without power loss and engine wear.

And a complete antithesis to what the Toyobaru is all about. If the Tesla is truly the future the Toyobaru is a Swan Song, the last of its kind.

I'm glad I bought a twin before a hybrid, electric vehicle or other car full of 200 lbs of toxic flammable batteries becomes the only choice.

I love the previous poster who said the Prius is pointless compared to a TDI VW, now there is even a Chevy Cruze Diesel, people are already reporting it matches a Prius on the highway mpg and it is a big car. We had diesel VW Golfs in the '80s that easily got 55 mpg for 400k miles, the early 90's Honda Civic VX did over 45 mpg for 300k miles.

As far as that 240z video, looks like Nissan is just right around the corner for a release , more like 5 years and the board will consider it!