FR-S, A Rebadged Subaru? (Article)

[mav1178]

Originally Posted by Anaxilus

First off, I don't have the time to respond to each manufacturer you cherry picked when you intentionally misrepresented my post w/ your poor reading.

Second, consider yourself educated: Part 1 of 8

I fixed your Google button for you, maybe you'll learn some Japanese too along the way. If you need help finding parts 2-8, let a fellow forum member know, they'll hook you up.

I don't find Rampage's posts in any way "intentionally misrepresenting" your post... yours was a blanket statement saying that "Toyota has historically done more and won more in all of motorsports than Subaru or most other car makers have combined."

While Toyota has done (and won) a lot in motorsports, in many forms of top-tier racing they have not had the success their peers have accomplished. To limit the discussion to sanctioned racing series (and not count outright total wins by manufacturers), one should list the series for context:

Formula 1
WRC
Le Mans
Formula 2/Formula Nippon/Formula 3000/tier 2 spec series
NASCAR
CART/Champ Car/IRL
Grand Am
etc etc

Case in point: in Japans's own prestigious racing series Super GT (formerly known as JGTC), the list of winners since 1993 can be found here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_GT#Champions

Toyota has won a total of 9 championships in both classes. The winningest manufacturer? Nissan with 16.

My point? Toyota has a great racing history, but the luck of Toyota when it comes to motorsports often are not as good as some of its other rivals.

-alex

Edit: I've seen that video (along with other videos about different manufacturers) and I am confused... how is that video an illustration of Toyota having more wins than most other manufacturers combined? Subaru I can understand, considering their involvement in motorsports only extended to WRC (and without the success of the Impreza at the WRC level, no one would care for a WRX!)...

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by thill

The car was a joint venture, and I know both companies take credit for it. Without both Toyota and Subaru, the car would not exist today as we know it. I don't think the author had malicious intent. The author was correct about Scion though. Prior to the FR-S, sales were in the crapper. They went from a high of 173K cars sold in 2007 to 49K cars sold in 2011 (US numbers). In 2012 they sold almost 74K cars, so almost double.

You can't really blame Toyota for trying to infuse intrest in the Scion brand. Honestly, without the FR-S, the brand was in danger of going away. For those of you who have some odd phobia about having a Scion or Subaru brand on your car just debadge it and put a Toyota badge on it.

Honestly it's crap like this that makes me angry. There was no point for the Scion brand in the first place if you ask me. I say just let that stupid brand die and focus on making Toyota look less boring.

KISS

[mav1178]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

Honestly it's crap like this that makes me angry. There was no point for the Scion brand in the first place if you ask me. I say just let that stupid brand die and focus on making Toyota look less boring.

I think you actually answered the question already, though...

Toyota as an overall brand was becoming stale, and by using a spin-off like Scion to experiment, the cost is relatively low (compared to reinventing Toyota as a whole) and you can have added improvements that improves corporate image without diluting core brand values.

No point? Possibly... but you can't "make Toyota look less boring" without compromising somewhere (to some segment of your target audience)

-alex

[RRnold]

Originally Posted by forzajuve

They allow clowns on this forum too?

Since Mar 2013...

[forzajuve]

I guess you misunderstood. Nice try in your attempt to be clever, clown.

[s0sl0w]

The FR-S isn't a cheapened, re-badged BRZ? News to me...

The should have just sold it as "BRZ peasant edition"

[supra2nv]

it does not matter what the car is called, all that matters is what it is...

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by mav1178

Toyota having more wins than most other manufacturers combined? Subaru I can understand, considering their involvement in motorsports only extended to WRC (and without the success of the Impreza at the WRC level, no one would care for a WRX!)...

http://www.auto123.com/en/racing-new...1?artid=151655

Apparantly as far as I can tell Subaru and Toyota have only won championships in 3 seasons in WRC so their success is roughly the same... surprising. Although the Impreza was DOMINANT it's reliability cost it a few championships.

[Rampage]

Originally Posted by Anaxilus

First off, I don't have the time to respond to each manufacturer you cherry picked when you intentionally misrepresented my post w/ your poor reading.

I appreciate you taking the time to Google the vid for me. Thank you. I did not cherry pick. I simply threw up the first few manufacturers that came to mind that have far exceeded Toyota's accomplishments. I will give you the three years they won the World Rally Championships before being banned for a year for cheating. I will also give you the championship in the circus they called Mickey Thompson Off-Road Stadium Championship. As far as JTCC and Super GT go,those are not really world wide series. With the two exceptions above, anytime Toyota has stepped onto the world motorsports stage they have failed to achieve their goals.

I am not a Toyota hater. I love some of their cars. But I also do not blindly extol a company's virtues simply because of brand loyalty.

I am not here to get into an internet pissing contest with anyone. However, you should re-read your post. I could have added many more manufacturers to that list especially if you want to concentrate on rally accomplishments. For example, Lancia and Peugeot.

I am very hopeful that the FR-S/GT86/BRZ may bring Toyota some wins. They have done well in some 24 hour races but failed in the Pirelli World Challenge series. I guess time will tell.

Thanks for trying to educate me. I am done here. We now return you to your regularly scheduled disagreement.

[zaptorque]

I LOVE TOYOTA VS SCION VS SUBARU THREADS.

SIMPLY THE BEST.

[Bristecom]

Originally Posted by suaveflooder

I'm confused why people are so mad about this. My car says subaru all over the place.

I changed my oil, filter said subaru on it.

All those little vin number matching plaques all over the car body panels, don't have a toyota or a scion emblem, take a look..... I see little stars

Also, I was detailing my car today and starting laughing. The rear trunk lid has "subaru" stamped on the inside of it toward the bottom, middle left if the trunk is fully open.

Even when I lowered the car, all the suspension parts said Subaru.

Pretty hard to miss the boxer engine in there.

Even the stock wheels SCREAM subaru in design. They look nothing like toyota wheels, and look very much like a subaru design. STI comes to mind.


It's so funny that the BRZ guys bitch about the scion not being a Subaru and now seeing this has me shocked. Come on guys, get over it. Toyota was involved for sure, but subaru did quite a bit on the car and I'm completely fine with that....I've got a car with a low center of gravity, good gas milage, reliability (hopefully), and KILLER handling. Why nitpick over the small stuff?

Yes, the car is assembled by Subaru so they get to put their stamps on everything but that doesn't mean all the parts are made by Subaru or even based on another Subaru. Many of the parts are actually Toyota based parts. And those wheels you mentioned were designed by a Toyota designer. There is a video I saw about it a long time ago. So again... it's a hybrid - not a rebadged Subaru.

[thill]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

Honestly it's crap like this that makes me angry. There was no point for the Scion brand in the first place if you ask me. I say just let that stupid brand die and focus on making Toyota look less boring.

KISS

The problem Toyota had was demographics. Sure they sell boatloads of cars, but they were being sold mostly to an aging population. They needed something to infuse sales to a younger demographic, hence the Scion brand. Right or wrong I personally don't have a problem with the brand, but they need to expand on the FR-S and make more desireable Scion vehicles.

I also wonder what will happen with the "Supra".. Will it be badged Toyota or Scion? I am betting it will cost a lot more than the FR-S (starting price in the mid to high 30's) and will be a Toyota.

[Bristecom]

Originally Posted by mav1178

Looking at this list reminds of the consistency in which Toyota fails (or rather, not win) at the 24 Hours of Le Mans.

They may not have ever won outright but they were second place several times. This year (2013), 1999, 1994, and 1992.

And as a side note, they've also made race winning engines for IRL and were very successful when they were in the WRC in the 90's (ignoring when they cheated).

So Toyota does has a larger racing pedigree than Subaru but they're no Ferrari or Porsche or Audi. And obviously Subaru is a much smaller company so they can't really afford to go all out with other forms of racing - nor would it suit them. Although they did make that boxer 12 engine for Formula 1 once.

[Perihelion]

Originally Posted by thill

The problem Toyota had was demographics. Sure they sell boatloads of cars, but they were being sold mostly to an aging population. They needed something to infuse sales to a younger demographic, hence the Scion brand. Right or wrong I personally don't have a problem with the brand, but they need to expand on the FR-S and make more desireable Scion vehicles.

I also wonder what will happen with the "Supra".. Will it be badged Toyota or Scion? I am betting it will cost a lot more than the FR-S (starting price in the mid to high 30's) and will be a Toyota.

Supra will be at LEAST 40k... it's supposed to be an entry-level hybrid supercar. Plus it's being built with BMW to possibly replace their Z4 (which already starts at 45k and is not a hybrid).