Question for BRZ and GT-87 hps?

[Capt Canuck]

Originally Posted by carbonBLUE

...with about 200lbs in weight reduction...

Where are you getting 200lbs in weight reduction from ripping out its various constituent parts?

[Godzpeed]

if u have driven a car that's chassis overwhelm the engine. the car will feel very slow, especially on a track. right now, the 86 is only fun is because of the wimpy tires it comes with stock and anyone could do a controllable drift.

so i guess more power is definitely needed

[MrBonus]

Originally Posted by FRSDREAMER

Hey Man, if you don't mind me asking....

What do you do for a living?!

I'm a partner in a small regional accounting firm.

[tachi1247]

Originally Posted by Corey

So you say the car's ability at a track isn't justification but you think daily driving is a good reason to have more power? Seriously? The power it has is far more than enough to pass someone on the highway and do double any speed limit I've ever seen in America, how could you possibly justify more power for daily driving? The fact that a very small number of them will see the track is precisely why it doesn't need more power. People like you don't need it regardless of how much you want it, and the majority of the people who do bring the car to a track do not have the driving ability to benefit from it, especially given how awful the stock tires are reputed to be. If you need to "wind it out to 6000 rpm to feel like [you're] in a sports car" then maybe this isn't the car for you, and you definitely shouldn't be driving like that on public streets anyway. There are plenty of affordable alternatives with more power if that's your thing. For better or worse though Toyota/Subaru is not designing or marketing this car to people looking for power with a 35k budget.

I'm saying that the justification people are using that the car has enough power to extract all that it can from the chasis on grand touring tires at the track is not a good reason to not have more power.

A matter of needing more power vs wanting it is a little silly. No one needs this car. It does not fulfill anyones basic needs for transportation efficiently. Great gas mileage...no, good cargo capacity...no, efficient people mover...no. the car is a toy, a luxury to those who can afford it. Regardless of what people on this forum may think, they are not the primary target purchaser. Very few peple will own this as their only form of transportation. Its a second or third car so there is no reason to do it halfway. I don't think it is unreasonable to ask for a car with good handling and enough power to out accelerate an accord. This isn't a muscle car, never will be, and I don't want it to be. I don't need to drag race a mustang gt in this car.

Btw, more power is useful for a lot more things than reaching a higher top speed. The fact that it can double any speed limits is irrelevant. A corolla can also double most speed limits. Having more power (specifically torque) will significantly improve responsiveness in the 5-85 mph range and that could b used by everyone in their dd.

Edit: based on the number of curent miata owners in this forum (very few) I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in my opinions even within this group of enthusiasts. If people really wanted a car that had great dynamics but lacked sports car power they could have bought. Miata at any time in the last 20 years.

The car as released fills a nice spot in the market due to having 4 seats and a good entry price, but I still believe a version using the wrx motor will come and will greatly expand the appeal of this car to snag some 370z buyers and some people who may fall just short of a z4 or boxster.

[SVTSHC]

Originally Posted by Gadflyii

whoa.... careful there bud.. saying anything negative about the car is a risky move...

The people on this forum will generally go all crazy on you, label you a troll, preach how you must not appreciate a true sports car, imply that you have never been on a track, tell you that you are a drag racer, suggest that you would be happier with a Mustang or a Camaro (because if you want more power, you obviously want a large, heavy muscle car!) and immediately start stroking each other's egos to justify there planned purchase if you make note of any of the following:

• 200hp is not a lot of hp
• 151ft. lbs is really not a lot of torque
• 2800lbs is not that light
• 0-60 in 6.0+ is not quick
• 25-28k is not cheap
• Point out that the brz/fr-s is not going to be quick around any circuit.

oh... and use search... a lot...

Here's the thing, the majority of people can't drive any of these 300bHP cars to their limit with any sort of effectivity anyway. So why not start off with something lightweight (in this day and age 2800lbs is a blessing for a RWD 2+2 vehicle) and moderately powered? Hell half the people that THINK they're good enough to easily manipulate this car at 300bHP would probably get wrecked by someone who actually has the skill to drive the car at it's limits effectively with stock horsepower. And if the people asking for more Horsepower don't have any intention of tracking the car then why the hell do they need all that power on such a light car? You'll be well over the speed limit in just 3rd gear , at which point you're just driving like an ass .

I personally plan on running the FRS with stock tires, stock horsepower and stock alignment settings for some time just to get used to the thing before I decide to up it another 100-150HP or get grippier tires. Not to mention there is absolutely NO reason to stagger this thing under 400bHP, all you'll end up doing is adding a bunch of unnecessary understeer, but I'm sure we'll see a lot of that as well.

[carbonBLUE]

Originally Posted by Capt Canuck

Where are you getting 200lbs in weight reduction from ripping out its various constituent parts?

i dunno, the RC/RA already comes with 100lbs less than the base, 100 more lbs wouldn't be hard, considering i will be doing weight reduction in the engine, throughout the drive train, wheels, probably all aluminum panels, ohh yeah and what ever is left of the interior is going out aswell, ill have an extra set of plastics for my DD 86

[LSxJunkie]

Originally Posted by gt86mods

I don't think anyone is insinuating that adding power to this platform will ruin the car, but this car was created with balance in mind. In a 2700lb production street car 200hp is the perfect formula. Any more and you're wasting horsepower, you can only use so much on the street.

I had an 08 335i and honestly one of the things that I disliked about it the most was when you would ring it out through 2nd you're already breaking the speed limit...what's the point of having a car with so much power when you can't have fun using it every day without fear of losing your license?

That's the point of this car, usable power for the true enthusiast. If you can't accept that then go buy something else. I feel that anyone who knows what true driving enjoyment is about will understand this car. People who are all about status and numbers will be disappointed. I love it, it makes it easy to pick out the people who...yeah nvm.

This idea that power is useless on the street is narrowminded. If you're focused purely on blasting to the speed limit, sure. However, I miss having gobs of torque for passing at ease. And I've driven a couple of cars that'll blow the tires off from a 60mph roll at 1/2 throttle. You can certainly use all that power every day, just not from standing stop acceleration runs. Hell, at 550whp, you're not even at WOT until second gear unless you're on drag radials anyways.

I don't think the FT needs more power for what it's designed for. However, this idea that you only need enough power to get to the speed limit and the rest is wasted is certainly untrue.

[Capt Canuck]

Originally Posted by LSxJunkie

This idea that power is useless on the street is narrowminded. If you're focused purely on blasting to the speed limit, sure. However, I miss having gobs of torque for passing at ease. And I've driven a couple of cars that'll blow the tires off from a 60mph roll at 1/2 throttle. You can certainly use all that power every day, just not from standing stop acceleration runs. Hell, at 550whp, you're not even at WOT until second gear unless you're on drag radials anyways.

I don't think the FT needs more power for what it's designed for. However, this idea that you only need enough power to get to the speed limit and the rest is wasted is certainly untrue.

I think the way you drive in public may be different to that of others in this thread.
My current car weighs 3200lbs has 170hp and 180lb/ft and not once have I thought I needed more power.

[SVTSHC]

Originally Posted by LSxJunkie

This idea that power is useless on the street is narrowminded. If you're focused purely on blasting to the speed limit, sure. However, I miss having gobs of torque for passing at ease. And I've driven a couple of cars that'll blow the tires off from a 60mph roll at 1/2 throttle. You can certainly use all that power every day, just not from standing stop acceleration runs. Hell, at 550whp, you're not even at WOT until second gear unless you're on drag radials anyways.

I don't think the FT needs more power for what it's designed for. However, this idea that you only need enough power to get to the speed limit and the rest is wasted is certainly untrue.

Yeah but think about it like this. Say you're in the left lane and the speed limit is 65, now giving the person the benefit of the doubt cause I know I get annoyed when someones only doing 5 over and they're in the left lane; say you want to past said person doing 70 cause you want to be doing 85. Is there really that tremendous of a difference between having a ton of power and simply downshifting two gears and hitting a higher rev range where this car makes it's peak HP? It's literally the difference of a fraction of a second unless you were planning on cutting someone off for the sake of overtaking them.

[LSxJunkie]

Originally Posted by SVTSHC

Yeah but think about it like this. Say you're in the left lane and the speed limit is 65, now giving the person the benefit of the doubt cause I know I get annoyed when someones only doing 5 over and they're in the left lane; say you want to past said person doing 70 cause you want to be doing 85. Is there really that tremendous of a difference between having a ton of power and simply downshifting two gears and hitting a higher rev range where this car makes it's peak HP? It's literally the difference of a fraction of a second unless you were planning on cutting someone off for the sake of overtaking them.

Yup. Downshifting two gears and getting 170whp to pass someone doing 70 is more than a split second difference against downshifting two gears and getting 360whp. Trust me. I'd always rather have more power. Especially around here.

Ever been stuck in the right lane on the Hutch or the Bronx River Parkway behind some idiot doing 45 who doesn't understand how to accelerate on the onramp, having just merged, but you can't jump out past them because traffic in the middle lane is kind of busy and going 70+? Happens to me on local parkways all the damned time. More power solves that problem.

[OrbitalEllipses]

Originally Posted by carbonBLUE

i dunno, the RC/RA already comes with 100lbs less than the base, 100 more lbs wouldn't be hard, considering i will be doing weight reduction in the engine, throughout the drive train, wheels, probably all aluminum panels, ohh yeah and what ever is left of the interior is going out aswell, ill have an extra set of plastics for my DD 86

I believe that doesn't have any sound deadening since it's the blank canvas version of the car, so that's where a bunch of the weight is coming from.

[tachi1247]

Originally Posted by SVTSHC

Yeah but think about it like this. Say you're in the left lane and the speed limit is 65, now giving the person the benefit of the doubt cause I know I get annoyed when someones only doing 5 over and they're in the left lane; say you want to past said person doing 70 cause you want to be doing 85. Is there really that tremendous of a difference between having a ton of power and simply downshifting two gears and hitting a higher rev range where this car makes it's peak HP? It's literally the difference of a fraction of a second unless you were planning on cutting someone off for the sake of overtaking them.

First, having a higher horsepower car has absolutely nothing to do with how big of an ass a particular driver is. I've seen as many jack asses driving in civics and camrys as I have mustangs. Age has by far a greater correlation to how stupid someone is on the road.

Now to address your question, yes there is a difference. It's the reason that most people end up buying a sports car. They want performance. A truly good sports car has both great handling and good power. If I'm driving a corolla, I expect to have to make that downshift, if I'm driving a sports car I don't. It's all about expectations. In a time when an affordable 4 door family sedan can hit 60 in ~6 seconds expectations are higher for a sports car.

For those of us that grew up with the Supra, 300ZX, RX-7, etc we want both parts of the performance equation because we know it can be done affordably. All of those cars existed for several generations before they ultimately got out of control with the price. For example, the first gen
Supra (non-turbo) had 200hp from a NA straight 6 in 1986. Your average family sedan at the time with GM's 3800 V6 was putting out 140hp.

The only "successful" sports car which could have been considered under powered (during its time not compared to now) is the miata. That is a tough act to duplicate and I personally don't think Toyota/Subaru are going to bank on being able to do it. They are following typical new model procedure. Hype the car up and release the base model and sell as many as you can. A year later introduce the convertible version and reel in all the new buyers. Finally, release a higher performance version and reel in even more customers. In the case of this car, I can see Subaru releasing an STI version and Toyota introducing a convertible version at the same time. It would further differentiate the products and for some reason I just don't see Subaru introducing a convertible in the US.

[SVTSHC]

Originally Posted by LSxJunkie

Yup. Downshifting two gears and getting 170whp to pass someone doing 70 is more than a split second difference against downshifting two gears and getting 360whp. Trust me. I'd always rather have more power. Especially around here.

Ever been stuck in the right lane on the Hutch or the Bronx River Parkway behind some idiot doing 45 who doesn't understand how to accelerate on the onramp, having just merged, but you can't jump out past them because traffic in the middle lane is kind of busy and going 70+? Happens to me on local parkways all the damned time. More power solves that problem.

Well fine, given the example I can see your point. I typically just wait for an opening then go around jump into the next lane. The point I was making is that toyota/subaru tailored this car in a direction that would make it a great entry level RWD sports car with a dynamic feel to it. The car more than delivers on that as seen in many reviews the power can always be added later if need be.

Lets take this from a performance perspective. There aren't very many new RWD vehicles out there that offer drivers that might not be the best a chance to safely improve their skills without putting them at life threatening speeds. That was the whole reason behind putting prius tires on the car as well. Sure 100 more HP and sticky tires would have made the car a hell of a lot better but it would also raise the threshold the driver has to get to in order to make the car far/the threshold new racers would need to get to in order to start learning how to handle oversteer, heel toe brake, know what to do in an "oh shi-" situation (and IMO that's the most important), etc..
Not to mention the car would go up in price, which you have to consider how much R&D and platform development went into this car. What they're asking for it is a hell of a deal.

Originally Posted by tachi1247

First, having a higher horsepower car has absolutely nothing to do with how big of an ass a particular driver is. I've seen as many jack asses driving in civics and camrys as I have mustangs. Age has by far a greater correlation to how stupid someone is on the road.

Now to address your question, yes there is a difference. It's the reason that most people end up buying a sports car. They want performance. A truly good sports car has both great handling and good power. If I'm driving a corolla, I expect to have to make that downshift, if I'm driving a sports car I don't. It's all about expectations. In a time when an affordable 4 door family sedan can hit 60 in ~6 seconds expectations are higher for a sports car.

For those of us that grew up with the Supra, 300ZX, RX-7, etc we want both parts of the performance equation because we know it can be done affordably. All of those cars existed for several generations before they ultimately got out of control with the price. For example, the first gen
Supra (non-turbo) had 200hp from a NA straight 6 in 1986. Your average family sedan at the time with GM's 3800 V6 was putting out 140hp.

The only "successful" sports car which could have been considered under powered (during its time not compared to now) is the miata. That is a tough act to duplicate and I personally don't think Toyota/Subaru are going to bank on being able to do it. They are following typical new model procedure. Hype the car up and release the base model and sell as many as you can. A year later introduce the convertible version and reel in all the new buyers. Finally, release a higher performance version and reel in even more customers. In the case of this car, I can see Subaru releasing an STI version and Toyota introducing a convertible version at the same time. It would further differentiate the products and for some reason I just don't see Subaru introducing a convertible in the US.

You know what though, according to EVERY SINGLE REVIEW on the FRS/GT86/BRZ it's looking like subaru/toyota DID succeed in making the type of successful sports car that the miata was. All we need now is to get regular joe's in the car giving the driving impressions most of us know we'll see.

[tachi1247]

Originally Posted by SVTSHC

You know what though, according to EVERY SINGLE REVIEW on the FRS/GT86/BRZ it's looking like subaru/toyota DID succeed in making the type of successful sports car that the miata was. All we need now is to get regular joe's in the car giving the driving impressions most of us know we'll see.

Far too early to tell that. They have driven pre-production models under supervision from touota/subaru. We know they like what they have seen so far but the real reviews will come once they get their hands on a production model to do their own testing on their own courses. Also, several of the reviews have said it could use more power.

The rx-8 also had glowing reviews when it was released and we know how that turned out. No torque = no fun for a lot of cars.