Got a track related question? I'll try to answer.

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by ja1217

I was wondering if you could take a quick look at some data for me...

My take is that the other car has a somewhat better power-to-weight ratio than yours does. I think that partly from looking at the data, and partly because I don't think you're leaving 1.56 sec. on the table - more like .5 to .8 would be my guess. You'll find that time by being more consistent.

Some thoughts:

0) Your line is very good; I only saw a couple of places where I'd make or consider making a change (see below).

1) Because he's braking earlier, he likely has his car more settled at turn-in. You're frequently a bit abrupt at turn-in. I'd leave the late-braking to others, and concentrate on being as smooth as possible all the way through the corner with the goal being to go flat at the apex and stay flat after it (in the corners where that's possible). You can then play with adding entry speed, which is easier when you've got your major braking out of the way and the car is settled.

2) As was mentioned, he's got way more torque than you do (~200, I would guess), and because his HP is greater than his torque, he's not having to pay a price for that advantage. If you solve that, I suspect you'll no longer be in TTD.

3) You're aggressive, and that's good - for example, I really like the way you use all of the track coming out of T10. I would focus now on being as consistent as you can be. You might have to reduce the aggressiveness to nail that, and then add the aggressiveness back in as you take it back up to 9-10/10ths.

4) Except for the exits of T3, T9 & T10, on that track I can't think of a curb that it helps to be up on. Of course, YMMV. As part of increasing consistency, I think you'll want to ensure that you've got the car exactly where you want it to be in every part of every corner on every lap. Absent that, you're shortchanging yourself.

Another way to help achieve that consistency is to install a race chair and a harness, assuming that's an option. That would make the car much easier to drive at those corner speeds.

5) Your line through T5 looked good on L8 - I wonder if that isn't the line you should be aiming for on every lap. (You'll have a much better idea of this that I do.) If you try it, you might have to move a bit further to the right before turn-in to make that line consistently.

6) You're turning in early at the end of the main straight. Fast drivers do a sort of very minimal Scandinavian flick at the end of the straight to widen the arc of the turn. I'm guessing that you're a couple of feet right of that line (ex.: ~6:31 in the video). In the screen shot below, you would turn left such that your left front tire travels towards the dark asphalt on the left side of the white line (see red arrow). Some drivers get over the line, some just go up to it. It's all over with in a hurry, and then you're headed to the apex on a much better line due to the wider arc.

7) I'm wondering if you can't get more from T4 turn-in to T5 turn-in. T4 has more camber than is generally realized, and when I walked it last year it also had a really grippy surface from the repave. There have been some bad accidents in T4, so make sure you stay off the inside curbing.

8) You ran faster on every lap - good job!

Some questions:

1) Can you post a graph of both of your laps (like the one below) showing speed, throttle, and brake with the x-axis showing distance as it is now?

2) Do you have the adjusted weight-to-power for both of the cars?

3) Did you ask the TT Director to see Marc's classification sheet - unless you already know what's on it. It's always interesting to see what others are turning in.

4) How many heat cycles were on your tires? Do you know how many heat cycles before they go off? (They didn't appear to be off, and if so they certainly didn't go off during the session.) Any idea how many cycles were on Marc's tires?

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by ja1217

Turn 5 (6-7 on track map?) - Did you mean 6-7 on the track map? If so, by single apexing do you mean staying tight to the inside the whole way though the turn or do you mean ignore the exit apex?

My 5 would be your 6.

Braking into 5 (my 4), you want to be firm, but don't use ABS. You'll make it.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by ja1217

I should ask him to send me a copy of his dyno graph, it would be interesting to see how it compares to mine:


Also, that is a very interesting theory about the hoosier sizes. Do you guys think that the lower rolling resistance makes up for the lack of grip from the extra width? Maybe next year I should compromise and run a 215, which would also give me enough points back to go full exhaust, which in turn should put me pretty close to the power/weight ratio for TTD.

You get diminishing returns on gained grip with wider tires, but you do get more heat capacity. Keep in mind with smaller tires, the entire tire heats up faster.

The reduced rotational inertia will manifest as higher straight line speeds.

Imagine if the M3 had wheels lighter than yours. There are wheels in the 10 lb range that are 17".

[ja1217]

Originally Posted by dradernh

My take is that the other car has a somewhat better power-to-weight ratio than yours does. I think that partly from looking at the data, and partly because I don't think you're leaving 1.56 sec. on the table - more like .5 to .8 would be my guess. You'll find that time by being more consistent.

Some thoughts:

0) Your line is very good; I only saw a couple of places where I'd make or consider making a change (see below).

1) Because he's braking earlier, he likely has his car more settled at turn-in. You're frequently a bit abrupt at turn-in. I'd leave the late-braking to others, and concentrate on being as smooth as possible all the way through the corner with the goal being to go flat at the apex and stay flat after it (in the corners where that's possible). You can then play with adding entry speed, which is easier when you've got your major braking out of the way and the car is settled.

2) As was mentioned, he's got way more torque than you do (~200, I would guess), and because his HP is greater than his torque, he's not having to pay a price for that advantage. If you solve that, I suspect you'll no longer be in TTD.

3) You're aggressive, and that's good - for example, I really like the way you use all of the track coming out of T10. I would focus now on being as consistent as you can be. You might have to reduce the aggressiveness to nail that, and then add the aggressiveness back in as you take it back up to 9-10/10ths.

4) Except for the exits of T3, T9 & T10, on that track I can't think of a curb that it helps to be up on. Of course, YMMV. As part of increasing consistency, I think you'll want to ensure that you've got the car exactly where you want it to be in every part of every corner on every lap. Absent that, you're shortchanging yourself.

Another way to help achieve that consistency is to install a race chair and a harness, assuming that's an option. That would make the car much easier to drive at those corner speeds.

5) Your line through T5 looked good on L8 - I wonder if that isn't the line you should be aiming for on every lap. (You'll have a much better idea of this that I do.) If you try it, you might have to move a bit further to the right before turn-in to make that line consistently.

6) You're turning in early at the end of the main straight. Fast drivers do a sort of mini-Scandinavian flick at the end of the straight to widen the arc of the turn. I'm guessing that you're a full three to four feet right of that line (ex.: ~6:31 in the video). In the screen shot below, you would turn left such that your left front tire travels in the dark asphalt on the left side of the white line (see red arrow). It's all over with in a hurry, and then you're headed to the apex on a much better line due to the wider arc.

7) I'm wondering if you can't get more from T4 turn-in to T5 turn-in. T4 has more camber than is generally realized, and when I walked it last year it also had a really grippy surface from the repave. There have been some bad accidents in T4, so make sure you stay off the inside curbing.

8) You ran faster on every lap - good job!

Some questions:

1) Can you post a graph of both of your laps (like the one below) showing speed, throttle, and brake with the x-axis showing distance as it is now?

2) Do you have the adjusted weight-to-power for both of the cars?

3) Did you ask the TT Director to see Marc's classification sheet - unless you already know what's on it. It's always interesting to see what others are turning in.

4) How many heat cycles were on your tires? Do you know how many heat cycles before they go off? (They didn't appear to be off, and if so they certainly didn't go off during the session.) Any idea how many cycles were on Marc's tires?

1) Here's speed/throttle/brake for my car. Marc's doesn't have that data:


2) My adjusted weight to power can be up to 13.8 I believe (TTD is 14.25, -0.8 for tires < 245, and +.35 for weight under 2900), so at a minimum weight of 2885, I can make up to 209 whp. I might consider seeing what I can do about this for next year. Currently I have 3 points left. Right now I'm considering going down to 215 Hoosiers, doing full exhaust, and maybe spending my last point on a clutch type LSD.

3) I have not seen his classification sheet, but I believe its +3 suspension, +2 springs, +3 chassis reinforcement, +6 tires, +4 wing, +1 hood vent. As for his power, I would not be surprised if he just has a much larger area under the curve, as others have speculated.

4) This last session was the 20th heat cycle on the tires. I have also worn off one of the grooves on all but one of the tires, so while they still feel relatively grippy they are probably on their way out. That said, this was my first set of Hoosiers ever, so I'm just comparing them to my Z2's, which I was a little more than a second faster on the hoosiers compared to the Z2s this weekend. I have a sticker set that I won earlier this year and I'm torn on either using them for my next event or just running my current set to the cords.

As for a race chair/harness, its something I'd like to do. My legs are always sore from bracing my self against the door and transmission tunnel. I hit a peak of 1.78g's in one of my sessions and ended up cracking my windshield at this event. I think a rock chipped it and then it cracked under the g force later in turn 1. See:

The crack isn't there at the start of the session, but it shows up either after turn 10 or turn 1.

That said, if I did get a seat and harness, I would want to do it properly and probably put in a 1/2 cage in the back, which probably means I wouldn't be able to fit 4 hoosiers, tools, jack, jack stands, camping equipment, and girlfriend in the car

[Captain Snooze]

Originally Posted by ddeflyer

Notice the gyro channel in the data

What does gyro mean/tell me?
Ta.

[ddeflyer]

Originally Posted by Captain Snooze

What does gyro mean/tell me?
Ta.

The gyro is a measure of degrees per second of rotation. If it takes you one second to go around a 90 degree turn you would have a value of 90.

[AZP Installs]

Originally Posted by ZionsWrath

!!^&!@#

Someone just smashed my right rear quarter, wheel, and bumper as I went to get gas in town next to the track.

Anyone know how long it will take to have a quarter panel replace? My next event is 5 weeks out so I'm hopeful but not gonna hold my breath

What should I look for in the rear suspension as far as damage. Car seems to drive fine maybe a slight pull to the right.

How does insurance deal with aftermarket wheels? My brand new PF01 is fucked up. Not bend but rashed bad.

We can help get your suspension and rims squared away. You should be able to bill it directly to insurance. Shoot us an e-mail.

-Mike Paisan


Maintaining, Modifying and Educating TriState Enthusiasts since 2001.
Like us on Facebook! | E-mail: sales@azpinstalls.com | 725 Fairfield Ave | Kenilworth, NJ 07033 | 908.248.AZP1 (2971) |AIM: AZP Installs
"Race Tested, Enthusiast Approved!"

[AZP Installs]

Originally Posted by ja1217

Yeah, its Marc. He's a good guy and I don't really think he's cheating. He got a dyno re-class recently, which freed up the 7 points that the E36 M3 starts with, letting him run Hoosiers. He's going to nationals in September, so I'm sure he'll be compliance checked several times. I was like 3 seconds off his pace at NJMP Thunderbolt, but I think my gap there was more down to lack of track experience since it was my first time there.

Yeah my sources here in NE tell me he is going to get his wee-wee whacked at Nationals by tech...

I think the torque of the I6 probably helps too.

I wouldn't say he's "Cheating" but all the TT guys here kinda say "Oh yeah his car is TTD wink wink nudge nudge". At least it's a target to shoot for!

-Mike Paisan


Maintaining, Modifying and Educating TriState Enthusiasts since 2001.
Like us on Facebook! | E-mail: sales@azpinstalls.com | 725 Fairfield Ave | Kenilworth, NJ 07033 | 908.248.AZP1 (2971) |AIM: AZP Installs
"Race Tested, Enthusiast Approved!"

[ZionsWrath]

Originally Posted by AZP Installs

We can help get your suspension and rims squared away. You should be able to bill it directly to insurance. Shoot us an e-mail.

-Mike Paisan


Maintaining, Modifying and Educating TriState Enthusiasts since 2001.
Like us on Facebook! | E-mail: sales@azpinstalls.com | 725 Fairfield Ave | Kenilworth, NJ 07033 | 908.248.AZP1 (2971) |AIM: AZP Installs
"Race Tested, Enthusiast Approved!"

Sent an email.

[Captain Snooze]

Could someone please explain the tape/cloth at the top of some steering wheels? When would you need a visual indication of "straight ahead"?

[troek]

i always thought it was so you can feel the top dead center of the wheel when your shuffling it through your hands when counter steering?

[ja1217]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

You get diminishing returns on gained grip with wider tires, but you do get more heat capacity. Keep in mind with smaller tires, the entire tire heats up faster.

The reduced rotational inertia will manifest as higher straight line speeds.

Imagine if the M3 had wheels lighter than yours. There are wheels in the 10 lb range that are 17".

I just double checked and Hoosier actually doesn't sell 215 sized tires. So what would you recommend? 205 A6 would probably have great grip, but I'm a little concerned about them overheating, especially as I tend to have my fastest laps towards the end of my sessions. 205 R6 would probably have better heat capacity. That said I'm still waiting on an official ruling of what the new R7/A7 will be scored for 2015. Right now the R7's are a 13 point tire and the A7's are 22, which would put the A7's out of reach for me, even at 205 size.

Another option that I'm considering is moving to 225/45R17 Maxxis RC-1, simply because they have a very generous contingency program. 5+ in class means 1st gets 2 tires, 2nd 1 tire, 3rd one tire. 3-4 in class 1st and 2nd get a tire. I think I would be getting at least 2 tires a weekend (since they count Saturday/Sunday as separate events). Compared to the Hoosier's where you need 5+ in class for 1st to get 2 tires and 7+ for 2nd to get 1 tire.

I'm assuming that even at 205 the Hoosiers would probably still be faster than the 225 Maxxis, but I would be interested to hear your thoughts. I remember seeing you, @CSG Mike in one of Maxxis' promotional videos.

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by Captain Snooze

Could someone please explain the tape/cloth at the top of some steering wheels? When would you need a visual indication of "straight ahead"?

personally I think it's a gimmick, I've never once heard anyone ever talk about it as being any sort of aid, even those that have it in their cars.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

personally I think it's a gimmick, I've never once heard anyone ever talk about it as being any sort of aid, even those that have it in their cars.

I might just try it before my next track day. Easy to buy some cheap colored electrical tape and put a strip TDC.