Future of the "twins"

[CSI:86]

Originally Posted by ae86stunt

FI would be a dream come true. I do have some Inside Info on the subject.
VIA 2 Emails I was blessed to have been allowed to read.
My finance officer at the dealer ship is a diehard FI enthusiast, We got to talking and, he swiveled his comp screen around.

Toyota and Subaru are currently in R&D faze of Turboing the FRS/BRZ. At this point in time it is at 45% R&D. Subaru has build a FA20 with a IhI vf-48 ( Stock STi turbo) and is currently in SAE benchmark Testing for Smog/reliability. Projected output is 260whp 230ftlbs tq. Possible release date. 8/2014, (2015 Year model.)

This is 100% legit just don't ask me what dealer, Im not gona rat the guy out.

So many market consequences will come with turboing the twins. 260whp will put power output above or the same as the new WRX. Hence, destroying WRX sales as WRX and WRX STI buyers are only look for power.

Not that i care of WRX sales going down. If it goes indeed gets produced and released, I would buy it in less than a heartbeat.

[lazyluka]

My idea of a perfect car:

• NA High Revving
• Light weight
• RWD
• Lot's of feedback to the driver
• Good on gas when you aren't going for it
• Reliable
• Fun when you want it, but relatively civilized the rest of the time
• Affordable

This car checks most of those boxes, yeah ok the engine could be better, but I am already seeing plenty of after market solutions. Just IHE with a tune and a 4.4 final drive would completely change the character of the twins, but some people don't want to pay for that (different tastes) and it's hard to pass emission testing then as an manufacturer.

The car is GREAT from factory, but it's a blank canvas which allows you to do with it as you want, if you want a turbo, its relatively cheap and easy to add one, if you don't then great.

I think that blank canvas approach to modifying is key to this car's success, it's such a good base that it will appeal to many buyers who in this world want this and that but they want to stand out a bit as well. They don't want to be driving the same car as the person down the road and buying a great cheap car then customizing it to your liking is perfect.

[thill]

Originally Posted by CSI:86

So many market consequences will come with turboing the twins. 260whp will put power output above or the same as the new WRX. Hence, destroying WRX sales as WRX and WRX STI buyers are only look for power.

Not that i care of WRX sales going down. If it goes indeed gets produced and released, I would buy it in less than a heartbeat.

I don't completley agree. There are some major differences between the cars. AWD vs RWD. 4 door with a useable backseat vs 2 door with a fairly unusable backseat. Larger and heavier vs smaller and lighter. I live in the snowbelt. People buy AWD for the snow.

I still think a 240-260hp BRZ STi would have a different market. I was only looking at RWD sports coupes when I shopped. WRX was not even a consideration.

[CSI:86]

Originally Posted by thill

I don't completley agree. There are some major differences between the cars. AWD vs RWD. 4 door with a useable backseat vs 2 door with a fairly unusable backseat. Larger and heavier vs smaller and lighter. I live in the snowbelt. People buy AWD for the snow.

I still think a 240-260hp BRZ STi would have a different market. I was only looking at RWD sports coupes when I shopped. WRX was not even a consideration.

Not when the new WRX comes out, which really looks likes a coupe. Not many people buy a WRX for its practicality side, its more for the horsepower. If the twins get turboed, there will inevitably be cross shopping between the two.

[regal]

Originally Posted by CSI:86

Not when the new WRX comes out, which really looks likes a coupe. Not many people buy a WRX for its practicality side, its more for the horsepower. If the twins get turboed, there will inevitably be cross shopping between the two.

Yes the new WRX is based on the BR platform/chassis. If "they" do release a turbo STI BRZ it will be a limited volume model to boost interest/sales with the normal models, otherwise it will destroy interest in Subaru's baby (WRX.)

What I am pondering with regard to the twins future isn't so much power improvements but a huge untapped market for the car as is. I think if this car was branded Toyota it could easily take 100k units a year from the Civic, the Genesis's, Mustangs, etc. of the market. The biggest issue is the engine, not its performance, but its "exotic" nature. I mean how much confidence does a Toyota buyer have in a 7400rpm 100hp/L na Subaru engines , its a real odd bird.

A larger market would be a great thing for those who want more power - huge aftermarket and much lower prices. Want more power load an open-source flash and bolt on a $2k supercharger, this becomes possible with huge sales. Buy a forged shortblock for $2000 ( why doesn't this engine have forged internals stock?)

There really isn't a need for an OEM FI '86, the car is plenty fast for public roads. I don't think Toyota with use the '86 chassis for the supra, that will be a GT-R type supercar. And adding $5k for a 280hp turbo puts it in a small stagnant market.

I'm guessing the FA20 adds at least a $3k premium over a 200hp Toyota I4 as designed, if Toyota had intended on a FI OEM model they would built an in house I4 EcoTech type engine.

I'd like to see the car can break 100k USA sales with the 2014 model, its completely doable if Toyota strengthens the Scion brand and the Subaru engine proves reliable. Scion ranked #1 in reliability prior to the FR-S, and this is the first time we are seeing Toyota really associating their name with Scion which is a great sign.

But if this drivetrain starts showing reliability problems, word will get out, the Scion brand will get a black eye and Subaru a blacker one. That would be the worst thing to happen to '86 owners because if sales drop off into obscurity we will be stuck with an expensive to maintain and upgrade car.

The future of the twins hinge on one thing, the completely new ground up designed na 7400 rpm D4S Subaru FA20. If it stands up to the abuse of young drivers, weekend track warriors, secretaries, daily rush-hour commuters, and mid-lifers, this platform will exceed sales expectation by huge margins.

[thill]

Originally Posted by CSI:86

Not when the new WRX comes out, which really looks likes a coupe. Not many people buy a WRX for its practicality side, its more for the horsepower. If the twins get turboed, there will inevitably be cross shopping between the two.

But it is still a AWD four door car. And forget the concept car you have seen, the end result will most likely look different for the WRX.
So what if there is cross-shopping? The buyer is still buying a Subaru. Do you think Subaru would do nothing if Scion released a higher performance FR-S? They stand to lose far more sales to manufacturers who offer RWD coupes that have more HP/TQ such as Mustang, Genesis Coupe, etc.

Personally I don't see an STi BRZ for another year or two. They will most likely release one when sales are starting to peak and they do a mid model year refresh.

[thill]

I knew I read this at some point. Pretty much confirms we will see an STi BRZ at some point:
http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2...ting-boss.html

In a recent interview, Subaru global marketing boss Atoshi Atake admitted as much, commenting that the company has been inundated with requests for a more powerful model. “Let me say this – we will certainly satisfy our customers,” said Atanke frankly. “We are already working on a faster version.”

[dem00n]

Future of the twins?



Drift cars with body kits, random carbon fiber pieces, big ass handbrakes, oddly colored wheels, roll cage which most likely won't work, over done turbo set ups and stickers.


Discuss.

[horrorbiz]

Originally Posted by CSI:86

Not many people buy a WRX for its practicality side, its more for the horsepower. If the twins get turboed, there will inevitably be cross shopping between the two.

Lolwut. These are completely different cars. There are plenty of other cars to buy if you're only concern is horsepower. I certainly didn't buy my WRX for horsepower exclusively.

The WRX is one of the closest things you can get to a full on rally car. This is very different from a lightweight sports coupe.

I love my WRX and BRZ equally, but for different reasons. Simple horsepower isn't really in the equation for either... If it were I'd just have gotten a muscle car.

[FiRStsc10n]

Originally Posted by AE86guy

This car was never meant to be the new Supra. It was meant to be the new AE86 Corolla GTS. If people want more power, then they should choose a different car. Just wait for the re-launch of the Supra(if that ever happens).

Couldn't of said it any better. It is well known Toyota is in the process of creating a Supra. For the meantime, I think a lot of you are forgetting that there are already some really good sports cars from Toyota. Akio has also put a lot of focus into his "personal project" Lexus in creating driver cars in the new GS and IS350. I personally think the upcoming RC350 and very-likely RC-F (to replace IS-F) will be a beast. Sure they are not barebones basic sports cars, but for Toyota to put the R&D towards better technology, it was better for them to put it toward the luxury divsion which really needed to up its sportiness to compare with the Germans, and then the tech can begin to trickle down into Toyota. Look at this car's D4S technology, trickled down from the IS-F. If I am not mistaken, the 6SPD transmission is taken from the 2ndgen IS. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the tech that comes from the RC350 development will be also in the Supra.

[FRiSson]

The horsepower race is destined to be an automotive dead end. While people may like horsepower it is up against too many practical considerations. First of all, only a small minority of buyers puts high horsepower as a high priority when buying a car. Second, tightening MPG requirements will put the squeeze on big engines, and turbocharged engines are just not yielding the mpg savings hoped for. Third, there are too many other technology areas calling for engineering investments, hp increases will drop to the back of the line. Last, in terms of bang for the marketing buck, hp increases yields more interest when you are going from 150 - 250 hp than it does when you go from 355 - 455 hp. All things are cyclical in market economics. I think the FR-S/BRZ in retrospect will be a watershed moment when manufacturers realize that they can garner stronger interest in dedicating a car to strong handling, than in dedicating a car to gaining 0-60 times. It isn't that either the muscle car or sports car will disappear, but that the sports car (small and efficient ones) will get greater attention from the market. For those reasons, I think that there is no compelling reasons for Toyota to substantially increase the power output in the FR-S/BRZ/GT86.

[Whitigir]

A Beautiful Women , but Ugly at heart.

A Not Beautiful Women, but Beautiful at heart.

Which one do you pick ? I will pick neither. I will pick someone who have BOTH!

The same as Car.

1/ Good Handling
2/ Or Power

I will pick: Good Handling + Power !!!

End of the debate.

[Whitigir]

Originally Posted by FiRStsc10n

Couldn't of said it any better. It is well known Toyota is in the process of creating a Supra. For the meantime, I think a lot of you are forgetting that there are already some really good sports cars from Toyota. Akio has also put a lot of focus into his "personal project" Lexus in creating driver cars in the new GS and IS350. I personally think the upcoming RC350 and very-likely RC-F (to replace IS-F) will be a beast. Sure they are not barebones basic sports cars, but for Toyota to put the R&D towards better technology, it was better for them to put it toward the luxury divsion which really needed to up its sportiness to compare with the Germans, and then the tech can begin to trickle down into Toyota. Look at this car's D4S technology, trickled down from the IS-F. If I am not mistaken, the 6SPD transmission is taken from the 2ndgen IS. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the tech that comes from the RC350 development will be also in the Supra.

You foresee that spot on. The new RC-F (Racing Coupe- Flagship) Will be a Beast. 2.5 Turbo Engine for the Rear Wheels, and High-Performance Hybrid motors for the front Wheels.

I am so looking forward to this Sport Coupe. The IS 350-F handling is already top of the top. Now let's see where this Coupe is heading. This will be a Toyota Technologies Marvel Beast.

I would love a Coupe that does 0-60 MPH under 4.5 seconds +30MPG

[sho220]

Originally Posted by FRiSson

The horsepower race is destined to be an automotive dead end.

And this whole "internet" thing is just a passing fad...