Future of the "twins"

[Z-PDX]

Originally Posted by regal

With the rwd, the powertrain losses are too great to notice small hp improvements like an intake and exhaust, and I think idea that heads/cams and a higher redline will be nixed due to reliable with a boxer, boxers just aren't designed to rev.

.

Boxers aren't designed to rev? Interesting.

First, lets define "rev". Do you mean a specific number? Or the ability to make power at high rpms?

Then tell me how the configuration of an engine (for a given number of cylinders) correlates to its ability to rev in a meaningful way.

[BadMoon]

Originally Posted by ottopilot

The car doesn't need more power to sell good numbers. I will add that at the price the car is, it's going to be hard to be a "failure". It is cheaper than a civic SI over here, go figure.

That's weird. A Civic SI in the US fully loaded was about $2,000 less. Go figure.

[WolfpackS2k]

While I'd agree you can build boxers that have high redlines, I think it's more difficult (i.e. expensive and space consuming) to develop a boxer engine with good high rpm breathing characteristics.

[CSI:86]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

Ummm, the S2000 was no failure. Honda was only going to sell it for a handful of years but kept building it for 10 years because it was so successful and popular. Sure sales tailed off the last 2-3 years of production. But by that point Honda had more than broken even on their investment. The S2000 had limited appeal, as it was a small convertible with a spartan interior, no automatic transmission option and limited creature comforts. However I'm glad they didn't "sell out" and offer it with an automatic transmission. I wish they had sold a fixed roof coupe, but that's a conversation for another day.

It's been voted one of the best sports cars of the last decade and will be a future classic. You can't measure it by the same metrics as the Twins, but definitely not a failure.

As to the OP, you can definitely fit a 2.5 liter engine under the hood. Just increase the bore and not the stroke.

Sorry i must have misled you to think that the s2000 was a failure because it was not popular. You exactly covered my point. It was a failure it that it had "limited appeal".

[CSI:86]

Originally Posted by Z-PDX

Boxers aren't designed to rev? Interesting.

First, lets define "rev". Do you mean a specific number? Or the ability to make power at high rpms?

Then tell me how the configuration of an engine (for a given number of cylinders) correlates to its ability to rev in a meaningful way.

I think the OP means a specific number higher than 8k or so, so that the powerband stretches farther than 7k. Because he says "higher redline"

[CSI:86]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

While I'd agree you can build boxers that have high redlines, I think it's more difficult (i.e. expensive and space consuming) to develop a boxer engine with good high rpm breathing characteristics.

Ecutek that joint! 8000 rpm FTW

[wootwoot]

^lol

[RurumariGhost]

even the head subaru engineer was quoted in C&D as saying "if you want hp, we have the sti. This car is built to be a drivers car". I think this means no OE FI in the twins future

[CSI:86]

Originally Posted by RurumariGhost

even the head subaru engineer was quoted in C&D as saying "if you want hp, we have the sti. This car is built to be a drivers car". I think this means no OE FI in the twins future

Exactly right. I find so many people are in for the disappointment of waiting for a turbo. They'll be waiting for a long time.

[oldlostcory]

So many people scream they want a turbo on these thing. I do not for a lot of the same reasons you said. Also to add one, the gas mileage would drop. One of the major selling points for me is this thing is fun + good mpg.

[nalc]

Originally Posted by regal

Stories of certain Subaru H4's that need an aftermarket tune to prevent running lean/burning holes in pistons, etc. Even with the STI the highest miles I can find reported is a single example with 250k but its on its second engine. You really have to hunt for successful stories of subarus made since '96 with high miles, where-as Honda and Toyota it is just common place.

The car I traded in for my BRZ had 221k on the factory EJ251 and wasn't having any engine troubles. I know a single data point is next to useless, but I personally had a lot of confidence for the BRZ motor based on my excellent experiences with prior boxer motors.

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

As to the OP, you can definitely fit a 2.5 liter engine under the hood. Just increase the bore and not the stroke.

Agreed, the FA20 is a square engine, 86mm stroke and bore. EJ25 was oversquare, 99.5mm bore and a 79mm stroke.

I don't know the overall external dimension difference, but the FA20 actually has a longer stroke than an EJ25, so I don't see that as a reason that the 86 couldn't fit a 2.5L motor.

[Whitigir]

Originally Posted by RurumariGhost

even the head subaru engineer was quoted in C&D as saying "if you want hp, we have the sti. This car is built to be a drivers car". I think this means no OE FI in the twins future

Wait until GMC and Hyundai having another competitor to the FRS and we will see. All I see is that the market can change anytime, and who changes it ? The consumers.

As long as we ask for it, and some people strives to satisfy the majority of us, the market turns.

The proof = FRS.

People has been asking, and hungry for this car. I remember what people wanted when it was a Prototype years ago.

Majority:
1/ Sexy looking
2/ Sporty
3/ Modification friendly
4/ AFFORDABLE

Here it is, the Sexy looking car with Sporty handling, and Cheap!!! Sub 25k is Dirt Cheap !!

But again, WRX and BRZ are 100% different car. If you compare the two, You are just retarded.

Proof ? Civic Coupe still sell, and Civic Sedan still sell. They are both the same car, the differences ? 4 doors, and 2 doors, Sporty and non-sporty tuned.

[CSI:86]

Originally Posted by Whitigir

Wait until GMC and Hyundai having another competitor to the FRS and we will see. All I see is that the market can change anytime, and who changes it ? The consumers.

As long as we ask for it, and some people strives to satisfy the majority of us, the market turns.

The proof = FRS.

People has been asking, and hungry for this car. I remember what people wanted when it was a Prototype years ago.

Majority:
1/ Sexy looking
2/ Sporty
3/ Modification friendly
4/ AFFORDABLE

Here it is, the Sexy looking car with Sporty handling, and Cheap!!! Sub 25k is Dirt Cheap !!

But again, WRX and BRZ are 100% different car. If you compare the two, You are just retarded.

Proof ? Civic Coupe still sell, and Civic Sedan still sell. They are both the same car, the differences ? 4 doors, and 2 doors, Sporty and non-sporty tuned.

I have to slightly disagree. The market doesn't turn to what the majority wants. The markets turns to what the majority wants, only if its viable for the market to turn to the majority's demand.

Majority of people want:

1) Turbo/High Power
2) Lightweight
3) Affordable
4) Sporty
5) Modification friendly
6) Not a FWD

See, the market wants this. But no car has all these characteristics. You have to satisfy one for the other.

[RurumariGhost]

Originally Posted by Whitigir

Wait until GMC and Hyundai having another competitor to the FRS and we will see. All I see is that the market can change anytime, and who changes it ? The consumers.

But again, WRX and BRZ are 100% different car. If you compare the two, You are just retarded.

Proof ? Civic Coupe still sell, and Civic Sedan still sell. They are both the same car, the differences ? 4 doors, and 2 doors, Sporty and non-sporty tuned.

GMC does have a "competitor"; the ATS. But I wouldn't really call it a competitor since its nowhere near the price point of the brz. Hyundai may tweak the genesis to make it competitive. But they'd have to put it on a major diet, and make it RWD.

I agree WRX and BRZ are apples and oranges, people always ask if I'm going to race my dad ('o7 WRX), and I just laugh at them.

I think subaru will stay away from FI because of the overlap with the WRX. Jeep stopped making the commander, because it was just leeching sales from the grand cherokee. And besides, if you want a turbo, kits are out there.