Has anyone had a warranty claim denied? Seized engine! Pics of teardown added 6/5

[2forme]

Originally Posted by Mikem53

Here we have a couple of examples of track run cars pushed hard to the point of failure. Pioneers if you will.. Obviously there are a couple of areas that need to be fixed and are being addressed by Toyota/sub..

I've seen this issue on a car that has never seen the track.

Also, try to refrain from using political stuff in your posts, even if only reference.

[Mikem53]

Originally Posted by 2forme

I've seen this issue on a car that has never seen the track.

Also, try to refrain from using political stuff in your posts, even if only reference.

On "a" car is hardly evidence or proof that an epidemic exists. I was making a small joke with the dem comment.. Sorry to offend.

[2forme]

Originally Posted by Mikem53

On "a" car is hardly evidence or proof that an epidemic exists. I was making a small joke with the dem comment.. Sorry to offend.

Oh, I'm not offended. Just saying they take that pretty seriously around here.

Considering we've seen 2-3 tracked cars with the issue and I've seen 1 non tracked car with the issue, that would infer a 25-33% part of the effected populace, in our extremely tiny sample.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by jdzumwalt

Mike can I ask why you guys still ran this car when you new it was hot? I remember you saying that the car ran hot oil and water temps. If your running it that hard, I'm just curious why you think it's ok not to add cooling to the factory system? I have a oil cooler going on my car any car that see's the kind of session you guys put out should have a upgraded cooling system period. The only way to get away without upgrading, is to run e85 for a cooler running motor.

Well, my S2000 regularly sees 225+F ECT and 270+F OCT with zero issues...

[smbstyle]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Well, my S2000 regularly sees 225+F ECT and 270+F OCT with zero issues...

Yeah, I used to have a CTS-V that would see 270+ normally on track with zero issues and the motor was solid. In fact, a lot of the LS motors run hot; many cars out there run hot on and off track, with no issues.

Mike, maybe it's that crap Motul 300V you're putting in there?

[mad_sb]

Originally Posted by SubieNate

So I was kind of bored tonight and decided to do a little test. I drove up to a 76 station in Perris that has 100 octane race fuel and mixed 3 gallons of it with 6 of 91 for a total octane rating of 94. I drove normally for a few miles to hopefully get the fresh fuel to the injectors and then did a 1-4 pull to redline followed by some 2-4 pulls to redline.

This may be totally in my head, but the motor just seemed quieter, less raucous/thrashy. Even when shifting at 7200 or so it just hummed right on up there. I could swear there's a bit more poke all around as well but that's likely a faulty butt dyno wanting to justify the extra $20 I put into the tank.

Cruising on the highway at 78 mph or so the motor was super quiet as well.

Just totally non scientific observations to add fuel to the disucssion.

Cheers
Nathan

Thats called subaru knock correction... you were likely getting full advance with the 94 mix.

[regal]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Well, my S2000 regularly sees 225+F ECT and 270+F OCT with zero issues...

Originally Posted by smbstyle

Yeah, I used to have a CTS-V that would see 270+ normally on track with zero issues and the motor was solid. In fact, a lot of the LS motors run hot; many cars out there run hot on and off track, with no issues.

Mike, maybe it's that crap Motul 300V you're putting in there?

Those engines don't have a DI injector in the combustion chamber, just a spark plug and no polymer "seal" required for the DI. The thing is detonation is more likely as ECT & OCT climb. The issue we are having with detonation and thrown rods happened in the late sixties with high compression V8's when spark plugs were not as well made as now and not as heat resistant, they would crack breaking the seal and the engine would blow. Its a fairly analogous failure mode.

The concern is D4-S was supposedly "mature" having been used by Lexus for a few years.

This is why I am so surprised that the experts here are overlooking the huge difference in a Subaru boxer head vs. the previous application of D4-S. A simple mistake in leaving too much timing after throttle lift at high rpm's just seems infallible to me with the D4-S maturity.

I mean Toyota did have Mike's first engine for several months without releasing an updated flash, actually there is no evidence that they have as of today domestically.

Below 6000 rpm this engine has very little HP. The only way to get the power out of this little beast is to rev it and keep it revving between shifts, without that its literally a 125 HP car. So extensive validation work should have been done driving in this matter. How could this have been missed? It couldn't have. Along with Mike's complete denial of warranty after Toyota claiming his first engine this is a very serious issue.

I hope those plots posted showing elimination of knock with proper timing management is the root cause but think its fair to ask what the ECT & OCT readings were with these given the strong correlation between knock, OCT, and ECT.

[ft_sjo]

Jesus, shut up.

The det occurs when you go back on the throttle after a shift. It's because the ecu is temporarily using the wrong spark angle due to latency in the system. This is what the transient tables are supposed to handle.

The transient retard during shift tables were disabled above 5200 rpm. The new cal fixes this. Was it a fuck up by Subaru? Possibly. Likely, no. But a fix exists so the effect of the old cal is obviously worse than whatever they were trying to achieve by restricting the function of the transient spark table.

Calibration engineers at OEM's know exactly what they're doing. Every value in every cal is there for a reason.

[whtchocla7e]

Originally Posted by ft_sjo

Calibration engineers at OEM's know exactly what they're doing.

Do they?

[ATL BRZ]

Originally Posted by regal

I mean Subaru did have Mike's first engine for several months without releasing an updated flash, actually there is no evidence that they have as of today domestically.

Fixed that for you.

[2forme]

Originally Posted by ft_sjo

Jesus, shut up.

The det occurs when you go back on the throttle after a shift. It's because the ecu is temporarily using the wrong spark angle due to latency in the system. This is what the transient tables are supposed to handle.

The transient retard during shift tables were disabled above 5200 rpm. The new cal fixes this. Was it a fuck up by Subaru? Possibly. Likely, no. But a fix exists so the effect of the old cal is obviously worse than whatever they were trying to achieve by restricting the function of the transient spark table.

Calibration engineers at OEM's know exactly what they're doing. Every value in every cal is there for a reason.

Well that's settled then. Though I think you're a bit off on the cause, seeing as I've seen this problem without the scenario you describe.

[SkullWorks]

Originally Posted by regal

The concern is D4-S was supposedly "mature" having been used by Lexus for a few years.

I mean SUBARU did have Mike's first engine for several months without releasing an updated flash, actually there is no evidence that they have as of today domestically.


I hope those plots posted showing elimination of knock with proper timing management is the root cause but think its fair to ask what the ECT & OCT readings were with these given the strong correlation between knock, OCT, and ECT.

Firstly, you seem to miss over and over that there are 2 companies involved each of which is apparently handling the issuance of TSB's at their own rate and with their own process, so atleast try to keep the manufacturer right so we can have some faith that you are paying attention since you have been asked nicely several times to pay attention and keep the nonsense down.



Second, I'm not sure how many cars have had D4s and manual transmissions...that makes a huge difference, the OEM's knw exactly how fast the Auto trans will shift EVERYTIME, so it is much easier to plan spark timing strategies as they relate to gear changes.


Third, Do you understand how many tables relating to spark retard are in a modern ECU's programming? The ECU looks at Oil Temp Ambient Temp IAT's Coolant temp, and short and long term Ign trim (at the very least) beore issuing a spark timing command....it's not like there isn't a knock sensor aswell to pull timing if all of the maps still don't provide enough timing retard with elevated temps, you aren't the first person to realize that increased temps lead to preignition

[SkullWorks]

Originally Posted by markitect

I was thinking 2 split rings would be an ideal solution, you could even notch them so they stay interlocked.

I also think you could make them out of chrome plated metal, even chromium plated aluminum. I don't see how ceramic would be required.

Here is a sketch, you could of course taper them to match the original collar better, but the idea would be 2 per injector, flip them around so they interlock. And if anybody makes these all I want is a free set for the idea.

That's the funny part about the real world, people think oh hey look i drew it now it's my idea, I want some free ones....

Provide a fully tolleranced drawing, specify all GD&T, tell me what material you need it made out of and in what temper and what plating process, how much build up and to what spec, the design the tooling to make it, plate it, grind it after plate (yes the tollerances will need to be that tight), then cut me a check for ~8k to make you a prototype, then and only then if your design works...you can sell it.


Ideas are like pollen, they are everywhere but it takes an incredible amount of other input to even verify if the idea was worth having.

besides, having the rings nest, and split causes more problems that it would solve, additionally the materials and plating you mentioned are not desirable for the application, and they would peel all the plating off upon installation, and gouge the head on install...

[markitect]

Originally Posted by SkullWorks

That's the funny part about the real world, people think oh hey look i drew it now it's my idea, I want some free ones....

Provide a fully tolleranced drawing, specify all GD&T, tell me what material you need it made out of and in what temper and what plating process, how much build up and to what spec, the design the tooling to make it, plate it, grind it after plate (yes the tollerances will need to be that tight), then cut me a check for ~8k to make you a prototype, then and only then if your design works...you can sell it.


Ideas are like pollen, they are everywhere but it takes an incredible amount of other input to even verify if the idea was worth having.

besides, having the rings nest, and split causes more problems that it would solve, additionally the materials and plating you mentioned are not desirable for the application, and they would peel all the plating off upon installation, and gouge the head on install...

Ideas are still more useful then being a **** on the internet.