Motortrend: 1989 BMW E30 M3 vs 2013 Scion FR-S vs 2013 Volkswagen GTI!

[jonnyozero3]

Originally Posted by zohare

OOohh.... Cayman S in a Scion body XD XD... that or they could give us a 2GR-FSE version and call it a supra... 280hp+ Toms did it!

Sounds awesome, but I'd vastly prefer a flat-six to keep the COG height good.

[acro]

Originally Posted by WingsofWar

When you start adding big air especially from ITBs, a Standalone is almost necessary to aggressively adjust the timing. More so if you want to tune on a very large table.

hmmm k. Would be good if one of the guys who tune with ecutek would comment

[SC David]

Funny. There's a magazine editor I work with who has a MKV GTI. We were cruising some twisty roads coming back from a shoot a few days ago and I pretty well left him behind after a few tight corners, even with the crappy stock Primacys. I'd send him a link to this video saying that it's "me and him," but he pretty well hates his car. Not really sure why, besides a couple reliability issues and the fact that he doesn't like understeering through corners. It's a damn good car for daily driving, and I'd think he'd at least appreciate that. Meh.

[WolfpackS2k]

I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned one glaring problem with the GTI.


The traction control is non-defeatable! You can't turn that crap off!

[WingsofWar]

Originally Posted by SC David

Funny. There's a magazine editor I work with who has a MKV GTI. We were cruising some twisty roads coming back from a shoot a few days ago and I pretty well left him behind after a few tight corners, even with the crappy stock Primacys. I'd send him a link to this video saying that it's "me and him," but he pretty well hates his car. Not really sure why, besides a couple reliability issues and the fact that he doesn't like understeering through corners. It's a damn good car for daily driving, and I'd think he'd at least appreciate that. Meh.

IMO it really depends on the speed posts and types of corners. In the Motortrend video they are around a track and can get a GTI to rotate much easier around a wider lane and longer stretches of corners. The FR-S will lag behind for obvious reasons but on the street its a different story.

On the street and autoX, where the FR-S very unique qualities come to life are comprised of low speed sections, narrow width lanes, and tight corners. A place where a car like the GTI, might fail in terms of overall feedback for the driver. This might equate to lower performance numbers. This is a real possibility, and it might refer to your magazine editor friend on why he hates his car. GTI would not be one of the first choices in autox and gkymhana.

In this video I do give props for the GTI being a better car generally, but they omit a few things. The car was built for the driver, and in the video they never talked about the driver, only focusing on the car. To make the battlefield even, id ask motortrend to do a followup video on autox and windy roads between the two cars. The favor will shift to FRS regardless if the GTI might still come out as being a better car.

[zohare]

Originally Posted by jonnyozero3

Sounds awesome, but I'd vastly prefer a flat-six to keep the COG height good.

true. but if it were longer and wider... SUPBRUUUUGGHHHH!

[chutrain]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned one glaring problem with the GTI.


The traction control is non-defeatable! You can't turn that crap off!

It is defeatable by getting it tuned. My buddy is looking to have it done to his GTI.

[jonnyozero3]

Originally Posted by zohare

SUPBRUUUUGGHHHH!

I actually have no idea what this means...

[regal]

The similarities between the 86 and an E30 BMW are astounding. Everyone compares the 86 to the Miata or the extinct s2k but that's not the market this car is targeting.
The BMW sold 2,339,520 E30's, then when BMW lost its way and moved toward Mercedes sized yuppy mobiles the E30 knock-off Nissan 240sx/Silvia filled that gap selling 251410 in the USA alone. Since 1998 there have been no <2800 lb rwd coupes sold in the USA. This could be a potentially huge market.

When you compare dimensions and performance the 86 is an improvement over the E30 and Silvia but overall stats stats are remarkably similar. However the low slung boxer, low COG allow an amazing suspension without being bone jarring, in this Subaru/Toyota has created the perfected old school budget sports coupe with an essence of the best German and British sports cars of old. I've daily driven 5k miles on mine and just can't get over how much it reminds me of my old BMW. Its almost a combination of the E30's nimble handling with the E24 6 series coupe.

[infanterene]

I am lucky enough to have had all 3 of these cars. I traded my mk6 DSG for my BRZ a couple of weeks ago. I took a test drive and liked the BRZ, they offered me a good deal so I impulsively bought the BRZ.

There were a few of things that drove me crazy about the GTI. I hated how the inside tire would spin if I was on the gas and turning. It could be a curve or maybe passing a car but the tire would spin and make so much noise that it made you appear reckless. Also I could drive down the road turning the steering wheel back and forth from 10 o'clock to 2 o'clock and zero reaction from the car. Very vague steering. I also didnt like that the power was not predictable.Sometimes the power would come, sometimes it wouldnt and sometime Id get more than expected. Besides that it is a great car, super practical and fast (especially tuned). Funny when I bought the GTI I stopped attending track days. By the way they dont cost $35k, It was $26k just like my BRZ.

My E30 M3 was a 1988, thats 25yrs old. It is a wonderful car with a great racing pedigree. Its actually very practical. Ive had 3 E30's and I think they are one of the best cars ever made. Reliable, practical, excellent ergonomics and lots of potential.

Guys dont put down any of the cars in this comparison without first hand experience.

[regal]

Originally Posted by infanterene

My E30 M3 was a 1988, thats 25yrs old. It is a wonderful car with a great racing pedigree. Its actually very practical. Ive had 3 E30's and I think they are one of the best cars ever made. Reliable, practical, excellent ergonomics and lots of potential.

Guys dont put down any of the cars in this comparison without first hand experience.

Any more insight on the your E30 M3 vs '86? I'm 42 and my mother just got classic plates for her '88 325is, that car has seen a very easy life, I haven't driven it in years but always wanted a car "like" it since the day she brought it home.

Its all about a connection of the driver to the road thru the car, my FR-S is a daily driver I don't car about lap times or massive acceleration. But I do care about not feeling the road, under-steer, torque steer, and in general driving with the wrong wheels. The E30 M3 and even the '91 318is was always a care I looked for but never found. My first test drive in the FR-S was instantly "this is it."

Driving any other car now (in its price range) feels like driving a bus, fast ones like the GTI feel like a bus with a powerful on-off switch. Hard to describe but I haven't had a chance to drive 14 hrs to see Mom and comparison drive her E30, but from what I remember the FR-S is better with its low center of gravity/less body roll being the biggest improvement.

[infanterene]

Originally Posted by regal

Any more insight on the your E30 M3 vs '86? I'm 42 and my mother just got classic plates for her '88 325is, that car has seen a very easy life, I haven't driven it in years but always wanted a car "like" it since the day she brought it home.

Its all about a connection of the driver to the road thru the car, my FR-S is a daily driver I don't car about lap times or massive acceleration. But I do care about not feeling the road, under-steer, torque steer, and in general driving with the wrong wheels. The E30 M3 and even the '91 318is was always a care I looked for but never found. My first test drive in the FR-S was instantly "this is it."

Driving any other car now (in its price range) feels like driving a bus, fast ones like the GTI feel like a bus with a powerful on-off switch. Hard to describe but I haven't had a chance to drive 14 hrs to see Mom and comparison drive her E30, but from what I remember the FR-S is better with its low center of gravity/less body roll being the biggest improvement.

I also had a 1991 318is. It was a slick top with no sun roof, pretty rare.

Comparing the E30 M3 to the 86 is tough. I sold it about 2 yrs ago. From what I remember it had more power. The steering on the 86 is definatly quicker especially off center. The M3 has a progressive rack where its slower around center to make it feel more stable at high speed. It has more body roll than the 86 but it might have more traction too. You sit upright in it which gives better visability. Its hard to describe it but its a very good car. It might share a lot with the regular E30 but it feels very different. The motor revs just as high as the 86 but has more torque.

I am thinking of selling my 63 vette and buying another one. I mis that car a lot.