Additional "pedal dance" testing.

[sw20kosh]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Must be that S2k/MR2 influence... I used to have a BEAMS MKII... :p

I still need to catch a ride with Robi, but I will say I'm far smoother in his car. Probably a result of setup... (his car is far easier to pick up quickly IMO).

I had a MKII as well. A 91 squirrely tail that I made even more squirrely with a Td07.

Why did people swap the BEAMS in for the 3sgte? The 3sgte was an incredible engine capable of lots of power. Is the beams significantly lighter or something? Or was the NA power delivery/response the main factor?

[Kamran]

Originally Posted by sw20kosh

Is this purely AutoX?

Next time I am running with the pedal dance.

It's a road course, with fantastic pavement. The new track in Shelton, called The Ridge. Although I did an Autocross course last month out of morbid curiosity!

I do progressive braking. In my early days, I used to be hard on the brakes, and after spending a lot of $$$ changing pads/rotors, I learned to be kinder to my brakes, which helps being more predictable and faster in the end.

Based on my current experience, I'd not use the tap dance for my driving anytime soon.

I think if I approach it as an engineer would, i.e. read the manual "after" failing to figure it out by intuition (!), the manual recommends only using the sport mode for sport/aggressive driving...

[sw20kosh]

Originally Posted by Kamran

It's a road course, with fantastic pavement. The new track in Shelton, called The Ridge. Although I did an Autocross course last month out of morbid curiosity!

I do progressive braking. In my early days, I used to be hard on the brakes, and after spending a lot of $$$ changing pads/rotors, I learned to be kinder to my brakes, which helps being more predictable and faster in the end.

Based on my current experience, I'd not use the tap dance for my driving anytime soon.

I think if I approach it as an engineer would, i.e. read the manual "after" failing to figure it out by intuition (!), the manual recommends only using the sport mode for sport/aggressive driving...

If only you could have ridden passenger in my car this weekend to see what "sport mode" was doing to the car....

You would have said "what is wrong with your car?!". That being said, track conditions, driver skill level and modifictions make a huge difference in whether it is helping your driving or hurting it.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by sw20kosh

I had a MKII as well. A 91 squirrely tail that I made even more squirrely with a Td07.

Why did people swap the BEAMS in for the 3sgte? The 3sgte was an incredible engine capable of lots of power. Is the beams significantly lighter or something? Or was the NA power delivery/response the main factor?

It's basically a Toyota B18 with K20 power delivery....

That and it was rather unique at the time.

[robispec]

we run a 7 front 8 rear...but we are at a 3" drop so the weight transfer is different...

Mike 12/14? iirc?

[CSG Mike]

10/12.

[Vracer111]

Originally Posted by Kamran

Last month in standing water, with the tap dance, I got the ice mode. Last weekend, in the dry and perfect weather/temp, I decided to run the car as it was intended by the factory and programmed on the track, i.e. in sport mode. With plenty of squeeling in the downhill turns, and plenty of surface traction, and occasional getting sideways, I never got the ice mode. Car performed very respectably against all the Porsches I was driving with, and only an occasional track prepped GT3 could match the cornering of this car.

I got plenty of controlled slides, to get a good taste of track driving character, so no lack of fun factor. So, I'm guessing with my experience, just maybe this car was intended to be in the sport mode for track driving?

I do not stump on the brakes, and my inputs are generally very smooth. So I cannot speak for the guys with abrupt inputs.

One thing I'm wondering though, if you have staggered wheel/tire set up, even with the same diameter wheel, your tire circumference would be different. And if the tire circumference is different between front and rear, the ECU is detecting a constant slipping. And any additional abruptness could trigger undesirable output?

Ack, Sport mode as in a single quick press of the Sport Mode button? Turn it "all off" with a hold down of the traction button for 5 seconds at least - sport mode is way too invasive if you have anything but stock tires on! With 215/45-17 Kumho Ecsta XS tires and completely stock brake system the ABS system was going crazy on me braking in a straight line from speed in sport mode, trying to engage and pulsing the pedal while really not doing much of anything when there was no issue at all under braking with "everything" turned off via holding down the traction button for ~ 5 seconds... plus the engine cutting out a bit in Sport Mode is annoying as well.

If Anne Hollis said I was one of the smoothest and precise drivers she's ever had and mentioned it to Andy when I was taking the Phase I and II Evolution driving school...then I guess I'm a smooth driver as well. I like steering with the throttle pedal more than the steering wheel...and somehow both micro-adjust both simultaneously to guide the car how I want it to go. I don't 'manhandle' the car under an iron fist to submit to my inputs - I actually try to let the car determine how it best turns in and finesse it into doing so in the best manner possible. Sport Mode gets in the way for me and really puts up a level of resistance in how the car wants to handle...like the computer is saying "no, I don't feel like doing that even though I'm perfectly capable of doing so..." Holding the traction button down for "all off" doesn't and the car is basically true to itself going all out, within the confines of EBD and ABS still being active.

I'm definitely trying the pedal dance next time on track... have tried it on the street and really not noticed any difference from holding the traction button down to turn "off" the systems (which is how I run daily unless it's raining hard, then it's Sport Mode). Of course there is not a lot of hard braking done daily driving on the street...and Extreme Performance tires may have made the braking behavior difference with/without EBD much smaller than compared to stock tires. Been back on the stock tires for quite a while now with my new daily driver wheels and absolutely having a blast and loving the car on the street... the developers knew what they were doing with these tires. Replacement street tire set will be of a similar level (but at less than 1/2 the price!)

[Kamran]

Originally Posted by Vracer111

Ack, Sport mode as in a single quick press of the Sport Mode button? Turn it "all off" with a hold down of the traction button for 5 seconds at least - sport mode is way too invasive if you have anything but stock tires on! With 215/45-17 Kumho Ecsta XS tires and completely stock brake system the ABS system was going crazy on me braking in a straight line from speed in sport mode, trying to engage and pulsing the pedal while really not doing much of anything when there was no issue at all under braking with "everything" turned off via holding down the traction button for ~ 5 seconds... plus the engine cutting out a bit in Sport Mode is annoying as well.

If Anne Hollis said I was one of the smoothest and precise drivers she's ever had and mentioned it to Andy when I was taking the Phase I and II Evolution driving school...then I guess I'm a smooth driver as well. I like steering with the throttle pedal more than the steering wheel...and somehow both micro-adjust both simultaneously to guide the car how I want it to go. I don't 'manhandle' the car under an iron fist to submit to my inputs - I actually try to let the car determine how it best turns in and finesse it into doing so in the best manner possible. Sport Mode gets in the way for me and really puts up a level of resistance in how the car wants to handle...like the computer is saying "no, I don't feel like doing that even though I'm perfectly capable of doing so..." Holding the traction button down for "all off" doesn't and the car is basically true to itself going all out, within the confines of EBD and ABS still being active.

I'm definitely trying the pedal dance next time on track... have tried it on the street and really not noticed any difference from holding the traction button down to turn "off" the systems (which is how I run daily unless it's raining hard, then it's Sport Mode). Of course there is not a lot of hard braking done daily driving on the street...and Extreme Performance tires may have made the braking behavior difference with/without EBD much smaller than compared to stock tires. Been back on the stock tires for quite a while now with my new daily driver wheels and absolutely having a blast and loving the car on the street... the developers knew what they were doing with these tires. Replacement street tire set will be of a similar level (but at less than 1/2 the price!)

Car's set up is for the track-only (toe/camber/lowered/stablizers/brake pads/tires,etc). Sport Mode was VSC Sport botton only (no holding TC). Car seemed perfectly happy running at the limits of tires' traction (and sometimes a little passed, in a predictable way).

What you and others describe could sum up to a huge liability for SubuYota... if the same thing happening to you happens on public roads, when a child runs across the street in front of you. Not saying some sort of an issue doesn't exist, just hope whatever it is, will ultimately be resolved by a simple reflashing of the ECUs.

[Vracer111]

Kamran, how new is your FR-S? When you hit the rev limiter does it abruptly cut power and drop about 1-1.5krpm or can you bounce it off the limiter? Really wondering if there are any differences between the first FR-S's that were available and newer ones....Sport Mode on sticky tires really seems to mess the ABS system on my FR-S, it still physically works but the pedal pulses hard for no apparent reason almost every time under hard braking; like it's freaking out from the sensor data determining it can't brake that fast, but it's not ice mode and it slows down fine. I really don't understand it...should not be doing that. ABS behaves perfectly with sticky tires when not in Sport Mode (all "off"...)

Beside the brakes I have no complaints handling wise in Sport Mode other than it sometimes cutting power a little on tight corner entry in a track setting...annoying. One session was all it took to convince me Sport Mode was of no use for tracking to me...car behaves as it should in all manners when systems are turned "off" per holding down the traction button.

[robispec]

with the rear brake upgrade my car is not drivable unless I eithe drive it at 80% so as to not engage the diff lock function or use the pedal dance.

[Kamran]

Originally Posted by Vracer111

Kamran, how new is your FR-S? When you hit the rev limiter does it abruptly cut power and drop about 1-1.5krpm or can you bounce it off the limiter? Really wondering if there are any differences between the first FR-S's that were available and newer ones....Sport Mode on sticky tires really seems to mess the ABS system on my FR-S, it still physically works but the pedal pulses hard for no apparent reason almost every time under hard braking; like it's freaking out from the sensor data determining it can't brake that fast, but it's not ice mode and it slows down fine. I really don't understand it...should not be doing that. ABS behaves perfectly with sticky tires when not in Sport Mode (all "off"...)

Beside the brakes I have no complaints handling wise in Sport Mode other than it sometimes cutting power a little on tight corner entry in a track setting...annoying. One session was all it took to convince me Sport Mode was of no use for tracking to me...car behaves as it should in all manners when systems are turned "off" per holding down the traction button.

I bought the car late last summer. When I hit the rev limiter, it cuts off almost completely; in fact the first time it did, I thought I killed the engine (since I had the experience before and it felt the same). I was expecting it to bounce back, not almost stall the car! I have set my rev alert at 7200 rpm now, so at least I get the warning light.

I'll be on the same track the following weekend again. For the first session I'll try the TC bottom for 5seconds and see if get myself in trouble. Otherwise, I'm loving the way it already is... In fact too many people stop by to check the car out, because they did not expect the performance it was dishing out....!

[AE86guy]

I experienced a lot of the "ice mode" at a drifting event at the balcony track a few weekends ago using the pedal dance. Mainly when I was spinning out(which was often). A car traveling backwards out of a third gear drift initiation with a rock hard brake pedal is not fun.
Using the traction off button was not an option as it would interfere too much, especially in transitions.

I pulled the fuse at the Dynamic Driving Academy clinic and that seemed to work pretty good, however, that was a low speed event so conditions were quite different. I also changed to a stiffer front spring rate but that shouldn't have made too much a difference.

I'll be at the balcony again in June for another drift event where I'll be running with the ABS fuse pulled. I'll let you guys know how that works out.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by AE86guy

I experienced a lot of the "ice mode" at a drifting event at the balcony track a few weekends ago using the pedal dance. Mainly when I was spinning out(which was often). A car traveling backwards out of a third gear drift initiation with a rock hard brake pedal is not fun.
Using the traction off button was not an option as it would interfere too much, especially in transitions.

I pulled the fuse at the Dynamic Driving Academy clinic and that seemed to work pretty good, however, that was a low speed event so conditions were quite different. I also changed to a stiffer front spring rate but that shouldn't have made too much a difference.

I'll be at the balcony again in June for another drift event where I'll be running with the ABS fuse pulled. I'll let you guys know how that works out.

If you can replicate the ice mode, I'd like to sit in the car with you. I've never experienced it, and need to figure out how to replicate it, so that I can work on a potential solution.

[AE86guy]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

If you can replicate the ice mode, I'd like to sit in the car with you. I've never experienced it, and need to figure out how to replicate it, so that I can work on a potential solution.

Just get the car to spin out completely and jam the brake pedal. It will even happen at low speed; first gear.