Vortech or AVO, seriously torn

[TouchMyHonda]

Originally Posted by deucethemoose

Overall. I mean, if economy isn't an issue, and e85 was plentiful and cheap then it would really be great, but its not cheap, less efficient, and hard to come by in this area.

Economy is a huge factor with the tuner. I get great gas mileage with my Honda that runs 100 percent E85. E85 is also a full dollar or more cheaper than 93 in Chicago. Not quite sure where the expensive thought is coming from.

[Wonderbar]

If you want a peak HP car that will drive and handle differently than stock, you don't plan on doing anything but showing off your dyno sheets and popping your hood for high school girls; I say go turbo.

If you want a smooth, factory feeling powerband with no intrusion to you oil system. A smooth and instant power delivery, wicked manufacturer support and support from the big name brands that have a reputation to lose. Then go vortech.

Also, with the vortech, you get to throw on the UEL headers and get a beast sounding car. Not just another turbo 4 banger.

Jeff Perrin is capable of making 300whp on the stock fuel system, I've seen his car in person and its gorgeous.

I have seen the AVO kit in person, the numbers are there on the dyno but to be totally honest, I wouldn't be too stoked to pop my hood and show it off.

Here is the thing with this car that I don't think most people on this forum are realizing, sure it's cool to say "I've got 400+whp", but we have a 2700lb car in its heaviest form. 220-270whp puts you at the magical 10lbs:hp ratio that super car manufacturers strive to meet. It really isn't going to matter how you achieve that HP, be it S/c or turbo. The turbo power comes in a bit faster which will change the factory balanced, fun, predictable feel.

After a lot of research, personally, I am leaning towards the vortech with a super aggressive tune from Perrin until open source for the car picks up a little better.

Bob, still love you and drift office is amazing. Just my preference on this one.

[Mr.Jay]

Same boat I've been checking out too many turbo kit threads and sc threads. I want one soo badly its bad news. Only thi g about the Vortech sc is I haven't seen a single one put out anything near 300whp other than Perrins. Everyone else seems to be around 250ish.

I would be very happy with 275hp Nd that's roughly my goal but the ability to break 300 is just soo alluring

[NickFRS]

I'll wait patiently for a year waiting for the ino supercharger to be released before I make any deciding factors on the build for my car.

Super charger
-Boost comes with RPM range (higher the RPM the more boost) It's a ladder of boost.
-Reliability factor is that a supercharger will not require as much service as a Turbo set up and isn't as "picky" in different weather conditions like a turbo kit is. (once you start getting into more boost you will need different tunes for different temps) On a supercharger this isn't exactly an issue since the Boost is made by the actual inefficiency of the supercharger/pulley. Different pulleys will give you more or less boost.
-MPG it honestly depends on your foot.

Turbo
Depends on the turbo....
(usually boost comes all at once)

-Smaller turbo,
more lower end power
faster spool
boost will drop off at peak RPM
More torque and faster torque due to spool
More for time attack or autoX
Better MPG

-Bigger turbo,
more high end power
more lag
more boost
less low end torque usually (depends on supporting mods)
re bigger injectors and fuel pump
will require more maintenance on higher boost applications
overboost will need to be watched in temp changes
MPG will go down and car will run "weirder then stock in low RPMS"
Will make bra's fall off.

[BRZPDX]

thanks for the valuable input guys. So far I get turbo = high school girls and bra's coming off. SC kit = way to go to keep balance of the car, but may have the lowest potential for HP compared to turbo kits.

So far Vortech is winning me over by a small margin..

[AVOturboworld]

Originally Posted by NickFRS

-Reliability factor is that a supercharger will not require as much service as a Turbo set up and isn't as "picky" in different weather conditions like a turbo kit is. (once you start getting into more boost you will need different tunes for different temps) On a supercharger this isn't exactly an issue since the Boost is made by the actual inefficiency of the supercharger/pulley.

You don't need different tunes for different temperatures on a turbo, at least not with our setup and tuning. We've run the turbo from 6000 feet to sea level, from 0 degrees to 100. Older cars, or running a speed density tune, yeah.

Boost comes in suddenly generally is a "feature" of bigger turbo's, a small turbo setup like ours comes in much like a OEM turbo setup. Smaller is a relative thing, it will do 350whp at higher boost levels.

[Mr.Jay]

Originally Posted by AVOturboworld

You don't need different tunes for different temperatures on a turbo, at least not with our setup and tuning. We've run the turbo from 6000 feet to sea level, from 0 degrees to 100. Older cars, or running a speed density tune, yeah.

Boost comes in suddenly generally is a "feature" of bigger turbo's, a small turbo setup like ours comes in much like a OEM turbo setup. Smaller is a relative thing, it will do 350whp at higher boost levels.

I'm thinking I really need to pay Bob at @Drift-Office a visit and check out this beast myself

[NickFRS]

Originally Posted by AVOturboworld

You don't need different tunes for different temperatures on a turbo, at least not with our setup and tuning. We've run the turbo from 6000 feet to sea level, from 0 degrees to 100. Older cars, or running a speed density tune, yeah.

Boost comes in suddenly generally is a "feature" of bigger turbo's, a small turbo setup like ours comes in much like a OEM turbo setup. Smaller is a relative thing, it will do 350whp at higher boost levels.

Whens temps go from 90 degrees to low 20's sometimes its best to have more then one tune. Otherwise if your car is tuned on a 70 degree day when the temps hit low 30's or 20's chances are you will overboost. At least thats how it has always worked with my Sti's n WRX's. IDK if there is some magical difference with the FA20 engine being boosted. These are also cars running 22 pounds of boost w/o eth or Meth @400WHP. Just from my personal experience.

P.s I do like your kits though and have run AVO turbos before and have no complaints!

[wrohdejr]

Originally Posted by NickFRS

Whens temps go from 90 degrees to low 20's sometimes its best to have more then one tune. Otherwise if your car is tuned on a 70 degree day when the temps hit low 30's or 20's chances are you will overboost. At least thats how it has always worked with my Sti's n WRX's. IDK if there is some magical difference with the FA20 engine being boosted. These are also cars running 22 pounds of boost w/o eth or Meth @400WHP. Just from my personal experience.

P.s I do like your kits though and have run AVO turbos before and have no complaints!

If you are driving your turbo on a 20-30 degree weather day you better be doing it on a ice pond or ice track. No way i would take my car out on those cold days just asking for damage and accident waiting to happen.

[AVOturboworld]

Originally Posted by NickFRS

Whens temps go from 90 degrees to low 20's sometimes its best to have more then one tune. Otherwise if your car is tuned on a 70 degree day when the temps hit low 30's or 20's chances are you will overboost. At least thats how it has always worked with my Sti's n WRX's. IDK if there is some magical difference with the FA20 engine being boosted. These are also cars running 22 pounds of boost w/o eth or Meth @400WHP. Just from my personal experience.

P.s I do like your kits though and have run AVO turbos before and have no complaints!

No, I understand what you are saying - you know we've been in the Turbocharged Subaru market since 94. But that's why I was mentioning speed density tuning, which is incredibly popular in that market. Speed Density tunes are a quick, easy way to tune for power, but that's the downside of SD tuning. That's why we don't do a SD tune - and why it took so long to make the basemap.

[NickFRS]

It's easy to be in the low 30's. ESP if you drive in higher elevations around Oregon. He doesn't want a garage queen so the car still needs to be realisticly street-able.

[deucethemoose]

Originally Posted by TouchMyHonda

Economy is a huge factor with the tuner. I get great gas mileage with my Honda that runs 100 percent E85. E85 is also a full dollar or more cheaper than 93 in Chicago. Not quite sure where the expensive thought is coming from.

e85 has a low energy density. It takes more e85 to go the same distance as a car running regular gasoline. E85 typically sees a 25%-30% drop in fuel economy, so with a 6sp manual FR-S being 22city/30highway we can assume that with e85 you will be around 15.5city/21highway.

Presently average prices in Washington are:

92: $3.83
e85: $3.13


So armed with those figures lets take a metaphorical trip. Lets go 1000 miles.

FRS' gas tank is 13.2 gallons max. We'll assume for the sake of argument that we are able to achieve no more than max highway MPG as stated above.

396 miles a tank on 92 octane
277.2 miles a tank on e85.

In order for you to complete the 1000 miles you would need to fill up (assuming you're running nearly dry and then filling up):

3 times on 92 (1188 potential on 3 tanks)
4 times on e85 (1108.8 potential on 4 tanks - ~80 miles LESS)


So to make that trip you're going to spend:

$151.67 for 92 octane
$165.26 for e85


e85 stations in my area, and circled where I actually drive. Closest station to my house is 50 miles. Sounds like a really attractive way to tune

[NickFRS]

Originally Posted by AVOturboworld

No, I understand what you are saying - you know we've been in the Turbocharged Subaru market since 94. But that's why I was mentioning speed density tuning, which is incredibly popular in that market. Speed Density tunes are a quick, easy way to tune for power, but that's the downside of SD tuning. That's why we don't do a SD tune - and why it took so long to make the basemap.

Agreed 100% and have used your products. When my 2002 WRX loved your turbos. Also I was mainly refering to larger turbos like 30r or 35r turbos.

-Personally if I boosted this car I would use something like a JDM twin scroll vf42 or something. :happy0180:

[TouchMyHonda]

Originally Posted by deucethemoose

e85 has a low energy density. It takes more e85 to go the same distance as a car running regular gasoline. E85 typically sees a 25%-30% drop in fuel economy, so with a 6sp manual FR-S being 22city/30highway we can assume that with e85 you will be around 15.5city/21highway.

Presently average prices in Washington are:

92: $3.83
e85: $3.13


So armed with those figures lets take a metaphorical trip. Lets go 1000 miles.

FRS' gas tank is 13.2 gallons max. We'll assume for the sake of argument that we are able to achieve no more than max highway MPG as stated above.

396 miles a tank on 92 octane
277.2 miles a tank on e85.

In order for you to complete the 1000 miles you would need to fill up (assuming you're running nearly dry and then filling up):

3 times on 92 (1188 potential on 3 tanks)
4 times on e85 (1108.8 potential on 4 tanks - ~80 miles LESS)


So to make that trip you're going to spend:

$151.67 for 92 octane
$165.26 for e85


e85 stations in my area, and circled where I actually drive. Closest station to my house is 50 miles. Sounds like a really attractive way to tune

I see more of a 15% decrease in efficiency, and I have access to it every where. I don't thing I have ever herd of a 30% loss actually. I wouldn't smack talk e85 because it doesn't work for you specifically. I see where you are coming from however.