Long Term FR-S

[FirestormFRS]

Scion doesn't need to be, nor was it ever intended to be a "market share" brand. Toyota didn't develop the brand to corner the market on small cheap cars. They developed the brand to introduce less affluent youngsters to Toyota.

I don't see it going away any time soon. Car and Drivers Aaron Robinson did write an article bestowing his opinions as to why it should go away. He's an engineer that writes articles for a car magazine.

Scion isn't that much of a drag on Toyota as a whole and with the flexibility the company has in its manufacturing operations they could sub one Corrolla spot out for any Scion (except the Subaru) model they wanted on the line. The company is the benchmark for all manufacturers of heavy goods for a reason.

[idreamofdrifting]

Originally Posted by regal

Reading the Car & Driver article that predicts Scion brand will be dropped by Toyota, basically saying the FR-S was a "swan song" for the brand , that got me thinking.

First of all this is a very low volume car for a "Toyota", only selling 10k units this year. The Miatas first year was over 100,000 units, then its volume dropped fast. The S2k didn't have enough volume to keep it profitable.

The FR-S/BRZ have a completely unique chassis and share very little parts with any high volume car.

I think long term ownership of this car could be much more like a RX-7 than a Miata. Scarce expensive parts.

An acquaintance once owned a 70's Subaru with 400k miles on the engine. A boxer engine is supposed to very long lasting due to the inherent balance, but these new engines have so much technology with the DI that the long term maintenance may prove very expensive.

I don't buy new cars very often, my first was a Yaris during cash for clunkers, several documented cases of these cars lasting a half a million miles.

Since I bought my FR-S I've put 5k miles on it, CEL light the whole time. Local dealership just keep resetting the CEL, they are so stupid they list the car as a 2013 Scion Supra ! I'm looking at buying a EcuTek just so I can flash the latest firmware, don't have time to deal with the idiots at the stealership.

Driving this car is so fun, it gets good gas milage, so I don't treat it like a rare classic, I drive it all the time and am racking up a lot of miles. But if these are going to be a low volume expensive to maintain vehicle, I might switch back to the Yaris for my DD.

Look at the MR-S owners, the issues that plagues them were a delicate motor and clogged cats, barely good for 100k miles in most cases. What saved them was an easy swap to a common motor from the Celica. But this is a RWD not MR, I really doubt there will be any motor swapping from a high volume car for these. Even motors from Subaru AWD's won't mate to this tranny.

You have to wonder if this is going to be one of those 200k+ trouble free miles Toyotas or a Scion/Subaru bastard stepchild with the same maintenance/reliability issues that plague European cars?

[cfusionpm]

Originally Posted by Saber_TRD

AE86 Black Limited, Sera, Celica GT-4, Modelista Celica, MR-S (2006-2007), Celica (2006), Supra (1999-2002), 86 GT Limited, I'm sure I could find more and if I started on other brands.... whoa boy would that list grow fast.

Feel free to move to Japan, where most roads are so congested and full of people that you can't move much faster than 20km/hr anyway, or Europe where, if you find a place that has open roads and aren't bogged down by huge traffic or painful speed limits, you are then enjoying $8-10/gal gas.

Yep, we have it so bad here.

[torqdork]

Originally Posted by regal

...Look at the MR-S owners, the issues that plagues them were a delicate motor and clogged cats, barely good for 100k miles in most cases. What saved them was an easy swap to a common motor from the Celica...

The pre-cat failure issue was resolved in the 2003+MY with new cylinder coatings and piston rings. Still, when I surveyed owners on Spyder forums around 2003, less than 1% reported 1ZZ failures due to pre-cat collapse.

But, if I were to buy a '00-'02 Spyder, I'd get a header that bypasses the pre-cats altogether.

Incidentally, I never lost a drop of oil racing two Spyders in SCCA Solo II competition and too many track days to count.

[cfusionpm]

Originally Posted by FirestormFRS

Scion doesn't need to be, nor was it ever intended to be a "market share" brand. Toyota didn't develop the brand to corner the market on small cheap cars. They developed the brand to introduce less affluent youngsters to Toyota.

I don't see it going away any time soon. Car and Drivers Aaron Robinson did write an article bestowing his opinions as to why it should go away. He's an engineer that writes articles for a car magazine.

Scion isn't that much of a drag on Toyota as a whole and with the flexibility the company has in its manufacturing operations they could sub one Corrolla spot out for any Scion (except the Subaru) model they wanted on the line. The company is the benchmark for all manufacturers of heavy goods for a reason.

I owned a tC for 8 years, I now drive an FR-S, and my Nissan-loving girlfriend is picking up a 2013 Camry on Monday thanks to my recommendation (which she liked more than rival Altima). I've never owned any Toyota car before the tC, but I'm pretty confident my family will look there first for future purchases. Scion has accomplished exactly what Toyota set out to do with shoppers like me: 25-35-yr-olds who think Toyota stands for boring economic cars your mom would buy. Now that title belongs to Honda who have chosen to kill off any sort of flagship or exciting cars, or any identity beyond "boring and reliable."

[Saber_TRD]

Originally Posted by regal

I think people (gen Y is smart) figured out that the TC has little to offer over a Sonic, the Tc is just a technically bland FWD with nice looks. Why they can't make it a Cobalt SS type FWD coupe I don't understand? Consumers are smarter than people think.

And the IQ? Sales are down almost 10%. If you want a micro car you want a 6 speed manual so you can hyper-mill and get 50mpg cruising around, why is that so hard to understand? The Yaris gets better real world fuel economy than the IQ and it only has a 5 speed manual. Who wants to bet on Scion parts for a one off Scion CVT in 10 years, I sure don't.

The biggest thing Scion had going for it was Toyota reliability. Toyota has the highest rated lean manufacturing infrastructure in the world. As much as I like my FR-S, it being the first reasonably price rwd sports coupe in over a decade is why I bought it, not Brand loyalty .

The Subaru engine with a first gen PI/DI complex motor makes one wonder if that Toyota reliability/longevity is truly there. I am not hearing of any mechanical changes to the motor for 2014 which is a big positive. But I don't think Toyota would be able to sell this car in the USA, it had to be a Scion due to the collaboration with Subaru.

Especially after the first 5k driving with a CEL. I think the Scion dealers are to blame for the brand's issues, they just aren't as educated or as in tune as a Honda or Subaru dealer, they aren't "car people". Every time I call and they pull up my car in their system as a 2013 Supra I just scratch my head.

Yesterday they finally said they found info that I need a new ECU, but they will not give a loaner car, have to wait there half a day. Time is money, I will just order a Visconi and be done with them.

I hope Scion has a bright future, but their market share has dropped a huge amount while other manufacturers have rebounded from the depression. Think about how almost all the Automakers are very successful now vs 4 years ago and Scion is holding on by a thread.

If it weren't for the FR-S "gimme", they would have surely been dropped by Toyota. I think a lot of folks buy the FR-S in spite of the Scion brand. And if their dealers don't treat these new Scion owners right, the brands future is very dismal.

Thanks for confirming one of my prior points in this thread, that many people went for the car because it was the only offering of it's kind available right now.

I don't see how they couldn't have sold the car in N.A. as a Toyota, they're doing it everywhere else along side the Subaru. There's no reason they couldn't here as well.

Your last two paragraphs are spot on. The only thing I differ on is that I hope Scion's bright future is being folded back into Toyota.

Originally Posted by cfusionpm

Feel free to move to Japan, where most roads are so congested and full of people that you can't move much faster than 20km/hr anyway, or Europe where, if you find a place that has open roads and aren't bogged down by huge traffic or painful speed limits, you are then enjoying $8-10/gal gas.

Yep, we have it so bad here.

A) That doesn't change the point being made, that we get the short end of the stick with a lot of vehicles that are imported(or rather not imported in this case) to N.A.

B) Europe has some of the best roads and tracks available, Japan has it's "Wangan" and tracks as well. They are not void of places to drive.

C) Expenses of a vehicle are irrelevant, a driver who wants to drive will find the money. Also has nothing to do with the point we were making.

[cfusionpm]

Originally Posted by Saber_TRD

A) That doesn't change the point being made, that we get the short end of the stick with a lot of vehicles that are imported(or rather not imported in this case) to N.A.

B) Europe has some of the best roads and tracks available, Japan has it's "Wangan" and tracks as well. They are not void of places to drive.

C) Expenses of a vehicle are irrelevant, a driver who wants to drive will find the money. Also has nothing to do with the point we were making.

Then "find" the money to import any number of these cars. Here in socal we see RHD Japan-only cars all the time. I personally know people with an R32 GTR and S15 Silvia, and I see RHD AE86s all the time. There are at least two panda paint job ones in San Diego.

Also, this route is about 40 minutes from my place, and its one of many "touge" mountain roads in the area. Then you have the socal-famous GMR up north, which looks like it's straight out of Initial D. As much as I would love to drive through the Swiss Alps, Palomar Mountain is pretty good for the time being. There's a handful of others, but that one I think is the most fun.

Yeah, we do get the short end of the stick for some cars. That's why we should be jumping for joy that cars like the FR-S/BRZ are brought over here at all. Unless you would like to find me another well-priced, light-weight, rear-drive, LSD-equipped, 200hp car for less than 25 grand. Hopefully it acts as a springboard to show support for such cars and more become available.

[brzninja]

I always wondered why Toyota kept Scion around. My cousin bought a tC around 2005 and it was the worst car I've ever been in. Stiff ride, loud outside noise, and the seats....oh God the seats!

I'll always question why Toyota gave the gt86 to Scion instead of injecting some "fun factor" into their own car line up of beige.

Oh well, I plan on driving my car for a few years and then storing it in a garage for the next 20 years until it becomes a classic car. By then I should be a multimillionaire and be able to afford said expensive parts...whateva

[jmaryt]

Originally Posted by serith

Sure, as long as you don't mind flushing money down the drain every month to always have a new car. What you're saying is true enough though, most dealerships will gladly try and get you out of your car loan if you're dumb enough to ask for a bigger one (banks will only let you finance so much money for a new car, so if you have a lot of negative equity you're SOL). Toyota's have a very low TCO (true cost to own). I'd suggest to instead save up the money to pay for a ~$20k car that will last, avoid leasing or financing (unless you can get a 0% loan and get some kind of return on your money, but then again it's nice to be debt free), and keep up with regular maintenance and enjoy not having a car payment for quite a while.

this is "dead nuts" accurate! two chains of thought.
1).buy a "beater" (pay cash!) drive it until it totally "croaks"
2) buy a "brand new" car (frs/brz) (pay cash) drive IT until it totally "croaks"
granted,the "beater(s) over time will be the most cost effective option,however,there is nothin' like "owning" a "new" car and driving it as long as possible...just sayin'

[jmaryt]

Originally Posted by serith

Sure, as long as you don't mind flushing money down the drain every month to always have a new car. What you're saying is true enough though, most dealerships will gladly try and get you out of your car loan if you're dumb enough to ask for a bigger one (banks will only let you finance so much money for a new car, so if you have a lot of negative equity you're SOL). Toyota's have a very low TCO (true cost to own). I'd suggest to instead save up the money to pay for a ~$20k car that will last, avoid leasing or financing (unless you can get a 0% loan and get some kind of return on your money, but then again it's nice to be debt free), and keep up with regular maintenance and enjoy not having a car payment for quite a while.

Originally Posted by strat61caster

What area are you in? Where I'm at I know the dealers were dying to charge a >$5k markup and they would have gotten it, instead they forced buyers to take clear bras, wheel locks, rear bumper appliques, bespoke, trunk mats, leather seats saying they were installed at the factory. Subaru's are still being listed here with $3k markups.

I appreciated the "pure price" once I finally got a dealer's nuts in a vice to sell me the car I wanted, MSRP is fair. It's not great and you can argue it's shit but it isn't highway robbery.



Some people would prefer to have a new car than extra cash in the bank, I think it's a mostly American phenomenon of "keeping up with the joneses"

As much as I agree with you there's clearly a market for what is essentially renting a car.

Originally Posted by regal

I think people (gen Y is smart) figured out that the TC has little to offer over a Sonic, the Tc is just a technically bland FWD with nice looks. Why they can't make it a Cobalt SS type FWD coupe I don't understand? Consumers are smarter than people think.

And the IQ? Sales are down almost 10%. If you want a micro car you want a 6 speed manual so you can hyper-mill and get 50mpg cruising around, why is that so hard to understand? The Yaris gets better real world fuel economy than the IQ and it only has a 5 speed manual. Who wants to bet on Scion parts for a one off Scion CVT in 10 years, I sure don't.

The biggest thing Scion had going for it was Toyota reliability. Toyota has the highest rated lean manufacturing infrastructure in the world. As much as I like my FR-S, it being the first reasonably price rwd sports coupe in over a decade is why I bought it, not Brand loyalty .

The Subaru engine with a first gen PI/DI complex motor makes one wonder if that Toyota reliability/longevity is truly there. I am not hearing of any mechanical changes to the motor for 2014 which is a big positive. But I don't think Toyota would be able to sell this car in the USA, it had to be a Scion due to the collaboration with Subaru.

Especially after the first 5k driving with a CEL. I think the Scion dealers are to blame for the brand's issues, they just aren't as educated or as in tune as a Honda or Subaru dealer, they aren't "car people". Every time I call and they pull up my car in their system as a 2013 Supra I just scratch my head.

Yesterday they finally said they found info that I need a new ECU, but they will not give a loaner car, have to wait there half a day. Time is money, I will just order a Visconi and be done with them.

I hope Scion has a bright future, but their market share has dropped a huge amount while other manufacturers have rebounded from the depression. Think about how almost all the Automakers are very successful now vs 4 years ago and Scion is holding on by a thread.

If it weren't for the FR-S "gimme", they would have surely been dropped by Toyota. I think a lot of folks buy the FR-S in spite of the Scion brand. And if their dealers don't treat these new Scion owners right, the brands future is very dismal.

one would think that toyota is sending it's mechanics to school to understand,and learn the unique operating characteristics of the boxer engine,however do we "know" this to a certainty? for my money,the "smart" play is to go brz shopping.never forget,THIS car IS a ''subaru" product,built by subaru,in a subaru factory...just sayin'

[cfusionpm]

Originally Posted by brzninja

I always wondered why Toyota kept Scion around. My cousin bought a tC around 2005 and it was the worst car I've ever been in. Stiff ride, loud outside noise, and the seats....oh God the seats!

I'll always question why Toyota gave the gt86 to Scion instead of injecting some "fun factor" into their own car line up of beige.

Oh well, I plan on driving my car for a few years and then storing it in a garage for the next 20 years until it becomes a classic car. By then I should be a multimillionaire and be able to afford said expensive parts...whateva

That's weird. I owned a 2005 tC for 8 years and while it's definitely no Lexus, it's significantly softer and quieter than the FR-S. Even after I put in springs to lower and stiffen it, the ride was very plush compared to now. In 05,it had a lot of features and amenities that most other cars in that price range did not. I loved it and would probably still be driving it if it wasn't upside down on a freeway off ramp.

[Xenocide117]

I don't think there is all that much to worry about. It isn't all that low volume. It's not a Carolla or Camery or Mustang by any means but I wouldn't say its exceedingly rare. Even if Scion disappears it's not like Subaru is going with it, and from what I have seen you can make just about the whole car out of aftermarket parts.

[brzninja]

Originally Posted by cfusionpm

That's weird. I owned a 2005 tC for 8 years and while it's definitely no Lexus, it's significantly softer and quieter than the FR-S. Even after I put in springs to lower and stiffen it, the ride was very plush compared to now. In 05,it had a lot of features and amenities that most other cars in that price range did not. I loved it and would probably still be driving it if it wasn't upside down on a freeway off ramp.

I forgot to mention I was in the back seat when riding in the car...does that make any difference? Maybe my memory is a bit jaded...

[cfusionpm]

Back seats were ok if you were under 5'10". Anything more and it wasn't pleasant. Plenty of leg room, but heads banged the hatch often, especially over bumps.