304 SS rusting in two weeks?

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by jr429

Actually I took a look at their site. I would be VERY surprised a lot of those rolled tips, flex sections, and muffler bodies were all built in the states. Certainly you can buy seamless pipe, a mandrel bender and a MIG welder but chances are you are not building a lot of that stuff in the states. I would question if those flanges are CNC cut in the states also - it's not cheap to do that here.

BTW looking at that WRX downpipe in good quality used to cost $80 to make in China with investment cast head. Would you rather pay $249 for a WRX downpipe built in China or $599 here? Most WRX owners would say $249.

Rolled tips are from Taiwan I think, they were talking about locating a US source, and they can make you in house welded double wall tips for extra $.

That is the only overseas component in their systems, afaik. They're open about their sourcing if you ask them.

[AlvinT@Borla]

Originally Posted by jr429

Sorry I meant high volume mfgs not a few one offs done in the shop. I've built a lot of components back in the day, and I used to build some exhaust, intakes, etc. here in the states. The stuff done in the states (at least the factories I worked with was NOT better) they are all typically geared towards industrial solutions so that's why a lot of the "made in usa" stuff looks more industrial. Certainly there are fabrication companies geared towards medical and aerospace, but I've never wanted to build a $5000 exhaust system.

The reality is if your materials are sourced correctly, your equipment is good, and your guys are good you will turn out better quality every time in China. The reason for this is you can have a guy sitting there and spend 6 hours welding together a titanium muffler bead by bead and it'll cost the same as the guy with a MIG here slapping something together. If you have enough production the factory is building for YOU, they are not on a tight schedule to switch production to some factory's chemical piping system or a couple of dozen diesel stacks for trucks.

I don't know of any larger automotive component mfg that doesn't source a portion (if not all) of their product in China. Hell just try buying 1/2" SS304 billet here to CNC machine, guess where the majority of those sheets come from? I don't know about the rest of the country, but here in Cali most of that is shipped from China anyways.

Borla Performance Industries, Inc. manufactures products in Johnson City, Tennessee USA
http://www.borla.com/search/?fields=...+sku%3Abrz~%29

http://www.borla.com/support/faqs/#8
Material Difference: Many new-model cars and trucks come factory-equipped with a low grade, 400 series stainless steel exhaust. These are an improvement from the old, rusty steel systems and are built to improve durability somewhat. Also, the inferior grade of stainless is the only cheap material that will last through the factory warranty period. But, ferritic stainless steels, which are part of the 400 series of stainless alloys, are magnetic, as compared to Austenitic stainless steels, which are part of the 200 & 300 series of stainless alloys and are non-magnetic. BORLA® incorporates Austenitic stainless, which is superior for automotive exhaust because it exhibits higher hardness and yield strength as well as excellent ductility. And, the higher nickel and chromium content makes it much more resistant to corrosion. Because these austenitic alloys are higher grade materials and harder to work with, they are therefore too expensive for the OE to supply.
High quality, austenitic stainless allows us to back our systems with a Million-Mile guarantee - A BORLA® is a lifetime system!
Performance Difference: BORLA® exhausts are also tuned to maximize the performance output of your vehicle and feature a more attractive and cost effective package than stock.

[GOT FR-S]

After 2 weeks it should not rust that fast being 304. But elements and ability to dry (which looks perfectly fine for that). However did they state as 304L? if its 304L (L = Low Carbon content) it takes much longer to rust. Maybe they recieved the wrong grade such as a 309 or a 410 and made the tips knowing or not knowing it was the wrong material.

[Tainen]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Rolled tips are from Taiwan I think, they were talking about locating a US source, and they can make you in house welded double wall tips for extra $.

That is the only overseas component in their systems, afaik. They're open about their sourcing if you ask them.

right... they only have one single part that is not sourced in the USA. And most everything else is made in house, including their mufflers (unless you request a magnaflow unit on some exhaust choices on the WRX).

Originally Posted by jr429

Actually I took a look at their site. I would be VERY surprised a lot of those rolled tips, flex sections, and muffler bodies were all built in the states. Certainly you can buy seamless pipe, a mandrel bender and a MIG welder but chances are you are not building a lot of that stuff in the states. I would question if those flanges are CNC cut in the states also - it's not cheap to do that here.

BTW looking at that WRX downpipe in good quality used to cost $80 to make in China with investment cast head. Would you rather pay $249 for a WRX downpipe built in China or $599 here? Most WRX owners would say $249.

Yeah, they are more expensive when compared to junk copycat stuff. you get what you pay for.

[JoeBoxer]

Originally Posted by AlvinT@Borla

Borla Performance Industries, Inc. manufactures products in Johnson City, Tennessee USA
http://www.borla.com/search/?fields=...+sku%3Abrz~%29

http://www.borla.com/support/faqs/#8
Material Difference: Many new-model cars and trucks come factory-equipped with a low grade, 400 series stainless steel exhaust. These are an improvement from the old, rusty steel systems and are built to improve durability somewhat. Also, the inferior grade of stainless is the only cheap material that will last through the factory warranty period. But, ferritic stainless steels, which are part of the 400 series of stainless alloys, are magnetic, as compared to Austenitic stainless steels, which are part of the 200 & 300 series of stainless alloys and are non-magnetic. BORLA® incorporates Austenitic stainless, which is superior for automotive exhaust because it exhibits higher hardness and yield strength as well as excellent ductility. And, the higher nickel and chromium content makes it much more resistant to corrosion. Because these austenitic alloys are higher grade materials and harder to work with, they are therefore too expensive for the OE to supply.
High quality, austenitic stainless allows us to back our systems with a Million-Mile guarantee - A BORLA® is a lifetime system!
Performance Difference: BORLA® exhausts are also tuned to maximize the performance output of your vehicle and feature a more attractive and cost effective package than stock.

Update on the UEL header please?

[OrbitalEllipses]

Originally Posted by jr429

Actually I took a look at their site. I would be VERY surprised a lot of those rolled tips, flex sections, and muffler bodies were all built in the states. Certainly you can buy seamless pipe, a mandrel bender and a MIG welder but chances are you are not building a lot of that stuff in the states. I would question if those flanges are CNC cut in the states also - it's not cheap to do that here.

BTW looking at that WRX downpipe in good quality used to cost $80 to make in China with investment cast head. Would you rather pay $249 for a WRX downpipe built in China or $599 here? Most WRX owners would say $249.

And that's what's wrong with the industry. Nameless Performance doesn't build "one offs"...though they would gladly build you something custom. Did you come here just to shit on them, because it certainly seems like it.

[BryanGT]

Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses

And that's what's wrong with the industry. Nameless Performance doesn't build "one offs"...though they would gladly build you something custom. Did you come here just to shit on them, because it certainly seems like it.

I think he's just trying to make a differentiation between "boutique" shops like Nameless and "big" businesses like Borla or Greddy, and none of his points have been especially inflammatory towards those businesses.

Anyway, it seems like this thread is diverging from its original purpose.

That kind of oxidation is unreasonable for 2 weeks, giving the OP the benefit of the doubt (it's pretty reasonable to assume he didn't soak his new exhaust in seawater so he could start a fight on the internet).

[SkullWorks]

Originally Posted by jr429

Come on, tell me one automotive company that builds 100% in the states. Please... What industry are you in? Wishful thinking is incongruent with reality.

I support Aerospace (JPL, Boeing, SpaceX, Northrup etc etc etc)

I also supply custom automotive products, per your design or mine, prototype or short run production.

The fact that it isn't reality is people like you would rather abuse (er employ) foreign labor and support the problem...I'll refrain from covering the human rights issues, the american jobless rate issues, or the fact that you are here claiming to run a auto parts company but so far haven't shared what company it is you own that is so large you have your own chinese factory...

How much 1/2" 304 stainless would you like I have bar stock square stock and plate all DFAR compliant and milled in either the USA or a European company who recognizes the same quality protocols as the rest of the first world...did I mention you get what you pay for...and based on your previous statements about having to replace bad product and send back whole containers of material....it sounds like maybe YOU and YOUR CUSTOMERS already know that...

[chulooz]

Way to get off topic in this poor guys thread.

Seems to me like you received a product that is inferior to you expectations; it will clean up easy but i dont blame you for being concerned.

If a vendor ever told me his exhaust is rusting IN 2 WEEKS because of 'over exposure to elements' I would laugh then ask exactly what elements the exhaust is built to handle(imagine 2 years)? In short, you are being hosed.... unless the piece was dirt cheap(either way id want a refund to put toward a quality system).

[jr429]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Rolled tips are from Taiwan I think, they were talking about locating a US source, and they can make you in house welded double wall tips for extra $.

That is the only overseas component in their systems, afaik. They're open about their sourcing if you ask them.

Actually I believe those TW rolled tips actually come from Ningbo. Very few TW companies actually mfg in Taiwan these days

[STEVEOSTI]

Originally Posted by AlvinT@Borla

Borla Performance Industries, Inc. manufactures products in Johnson City, Tennessee USA
http://www.borla.com/search/?fields=...+sku%3Abrz~%29

http://www.borla.com/support/faqs/#8
Material Difference: Many new-model cars and trucks come factory-equipped with a low grade, 400 series stainless steel exhaust. These are an improvement from the old, rusty steel systems and are built to improve durability somewhat. Also, the inferior grade of stainless is the only cheap material that will last through the factory warranty period. But, ferritic stainless steels, which are part of the 400 series of stainless alloys, are magnetic, as compared to Austenitic stainless steels, which are part of the 200 & 300 series of stainless alloys and are non-magnetic. BORLA® incorporates Austenitic stainless, which is superior for automotive exhaust because it exhibits higher hardness and yield strength as well as excellent ductility. And, the higher nickel and chromium content makes it much more resistant to corrosion. Because these austenitic alloys are higher grade materials and harder to work with, they are therefore too expensive for the OE to supply.
High quality, austenitic stainless allows us to back our systems with a Million-Mile guarantee - A BORLA® is a lifetime system!
Performance Difference: BORLA® exhausts are also tuned to maximize the performance output of your vehicle and feature a more attractive and cost effective package than stock.

Borla is 90%+ MADE IN CHINA. As are 95% of the exhaust companies straight tubing, and in many cases mufflers, and tips. It comes by the container load. I could show you pictures of tubing being unloaded by the container. I've been in the industry for a long time, and can tell you first hand how many times I've seen bad 304 stainless do exactly what is show above. Some of it rusts before it even gets out of the container and onto the mandrel bender.

In a market that is so competitive and price driven, there are very very few companies that make the effort to buy north american stainless. Even if the system is bent, welded, and boxed in north america, chances are, the tips come out of a brown box with big letters "Made in China".

Most times steel wool and polish will clear this up, temporarily, but it will come back time and time again. I personally would love to know what the manufacturer is doing about this, and thanks for bringing it to our attention. We replaced thousands of tips at my old employer for this reason exactly. Price cuts, quality cuts, and rusty "304" stainless.

[l0aded]

Can I use CLR (Calcium Lime Rust) on the exhaust to clean up any rust on exhast? Is there any way to check the inside of the exhaust / clean the inside for rust without taking apart the whole thing? Like maybe just spray something and have the exhaust naturally blow it out.

[jr429]

Originally Posted by SkullWorks

I support Aerospace (JPL, Boeing, SpaceX, Northrup etc etc etc)

I also supply custom automotive products, per your design or mine, prototype or short run production.

The fact that it isn't reality is people like you would rather abuse (er employ) foreign labor and support the problem...I'll refrain from covering the human rights issues, the american jobless rate issues, or the fact that you are here claiming to run a auto parts company but so far haven't shared what company it is you own that is so large you have your own chinese factory...

How much 1/2" 304 stainless would you like I have bar stock square stock and plate all DFAR compliant and milled in either the USA or a European company who recognizes the same quality protocols as the rest of the first world...did I mention you get what you pay for...and based on your previous statements about having to replace bad product and send back whole containers of material....it sounds like maybe YOU and YOUR CUSTOMERS already know that...

We are certainly getting way off topic here.

Based on your comments my estimation is that firstly you have very little experience with global supply chain or sourcing either in Aerospace or Automotive, have probably never even set foot much less owned equity in overseas manufacturing, and certainly very little experience with China based manufacturing since you seem to be merely parroting what the MSM is telling you without clear understanding of the fundamental micro economics that goes behind outsourcing or the macro economics of a US economic policy that supports said outsourcing through debt creation - but neither of these topics are reasonable for this thread.

To claim that less than half the components of any modern automobile don't come from China is simply naivete and ignorance. Even more advanced materials such as turbine and compressor wheels for automobiles are today produced in China, some machined and inspected in Japan (such as IHI or Garrett) and then sold as made in XXX. Even in the aerospace business much of the components outsourced to Japan originated from China, do you think the majority of the dreamliner components are made stateside? I argue no. Of course you still have defense related components built mostly here in the US, but I guess that's where you get what you pay for with a P&W F135 reportedly costing more than $30 mil/unit. Your average consumer good is made in China and consumers prefer to pay much less for a slightly shittier product than much more for a slightly better product.

[jr429]

eh gettin off topic...