Got my car back from Vortech!-3rd party tests & test drivers thread

[skatery1989]

Originally Posted by Pete

Thanks for all the info. I will definitely try the map switching this weekend. Is this your way of trying to entice me into using the FFS and autoblip? lol

Do you think that a boost leak is a realistic concern, something I should check for?

Edit:
Probably not with all three of us turning in such similar numbers. It is much hotter & more humid down here than Oregon though.

Have you tried the flat foot shifting yet?

[Pete]

Originally Posted by skatery1989

Have you tried the flat foot shifting yet?

Not you too!

I'll try it this weekend, geez whatever happened to heel-toeing. Honestly I think the reason I avoid stuff like that is because this is my 6th manual transmission car and I have many years of reflexes and muscle memory that I don't know if I can unlearn. I am also worried I might like it and then forget how to drive properly without it haha.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by PERRIN_Jeff

Variable #2
Map switching is something that was setup on these tunes and I made map 3 have the timing that I used on the dyno runs making 240WHP. Maps, 2 and 1, both had less timing. I found out that the dyno runs Phastek did, were done on Map 1 making for less power. I completely forgot to tell them about the map switching after emailing them maps! My bad!

Damn I just tried out map #2 for a quick run for dinner and it feels stronger and the engine noise is different as well. The Perrin website still has the S/C maps as TBA, can you give me a quick run down on the maps 1-4? Are they basically the same as the N/A maps?

[Sonolin]

Thanks Perrin!!!

That post really cleared up a lot of my confusion, I really appreciate that. This is getting me much more excited about this S/C kit, 300 whp on pump gas is very very nice, and the power curve looks amazing as well.

Glad to see there's that potential for this. Especially with e85.

Have there been any dynos done with e85 yet? Sure 300 is definitely possible with lower boost + e85, which sounds just about perfect. Amazing power to weight as well. That really sounds awesome especially vs. the 240 whp of stg 1.

Damn, now I'm even more excited about this kit.

[2forme]

Originally Posted by PERRIN_Jeff

I now see your concern, and I agree, the cars were not making the power they should be, or that the change in HP isn't quite what everyone expected.

I/we fully stand behind the HP claims we make on all our parts. We don't show the highest HP runs, and with the SC kit, I was actually able to make more power, but we didn't show this because its always better to underestimate. Even with that, this is causing some Internet drama still. So the question is why are things off a bit??

Variable #1
The dyno graphs I shows are for stock BRZ (no tune, no mods) vs the Vortech Tuner kit using the stock supplied pulley.

No, your dynos included a Perrin header back exhaust. Here is an excerpt from directly after your first dyno that is posted in your supercharger post.

So was there more power to extract? Yes! Below is an overlay of the old best run with the final tune. As I suspected there was more of low to mid range horsepower to be gained along with more consistent top end power. With some optimization of cam timing, fueling and timing maps, I was able to get a few more HP almost everywhere and smooth out things a bit. This test was done on our BRZ with a PERRIN Headerback, 2.5" system with a cat running on 92octane. This means the stock header with cat was still in place as well as our high flow cat.

This is of course, after the completely ridiculous AVO turbo kit comparison graph. Which, btw is outdated. You might want to update that if you want to keep your information accurate.

So variable one, doesn't matter as at least one of your customers also dynoed with the Perrin exhaust and gained the exact same as another who didn't have one. You still gained 80whp while they gained 50.

The other dynos from Phastek guys all are showing the "base run" but these are all cars with either header back exhaust, or overpipe back exhaust ,or with ECU tuning. Lets say that adds 10-15WHP to the base HP runs that I showed. Now we are much closer to the actual change in HP we showed.

Aye aye aye. I dynoed the EXACT same (175whp) as them with just a headerback exhaust and NO tuning. I doubt my exhaust added 15 whp. 8 I would believe... but 15?

Variable #2
Map switching is something that was setup on these tunes and I made map 3 have the timing that I used on the dyno runs making 240WHP. Maps, 2 and 1, both had less timing. I found out that the dyno runs Phastek did, were done on Map 1 making for less power. I completely forgot to tell them about the map switching after emailing them maps! My bad!

This concerns me. You mentioned the car pulling up to 5 degrees of timing which causes that rollercoaster power line... Yet this was done on a the "conservative" tune? If the ECU is pulling timing to that degree, I can't imagine what a map with more timing would do. Besides the ECU would just pull it anyway. I'm not sure I buy the whole "oops I forgot to tell ALL my customers about the secrets of Map 3." I mean, you're hawking this kit because of the power it makes, yet you don't tell people about the "power" map, until your claims come up in dispute? Hopefully, one of the Phastek guys does a dyno comparison of map 1/3. Not trying to be a dink, but just seems rather off to me.

Variable #3
Since this was really bugging me, I re-looking at the "Knock Free" logs I have from the dyno runs. The boost at 7400 on my car was 7psi on the dot. The logs of one of these cars was seeing 5.9psi. At 5500 RPM I am seeing 4psi and the other car was seeing 3.4psi. That tells me the atmospheric conditions could have been different, or there was a small boost leak. This may not matter much but its another variable to consider.

All 4 customers were seeing less boost? Logs please?

Variable #4
There was no over pipe installed on two of the Phastek cars. The question is how much difference does this make?? If we found 3HP on our car, that also means a bit more power on two of them.

No overpipe? Were they running open exhaust? I'm not sure I understand. So, assuming you mean they already removed the secondary cat of the over pipe and gained the 3whp, that still doesn't add up to the 30whp discrepancy.

Variable #5
No oil coolers on any of these cars. As we have found the oil cooler is worth much more consistent HP and especially on a SC car running more boost and much more stress that doesn't help.

The car I rode in with the SC had consistent oil temps. According to the oil temp thread, none warranted an oil cooler. Besides, I highly doubt these cars were flogged around hard then immediately slapped on a dyno. The oil would have had plenty of time to cool off.

Here are new dyno graphs comparing the same 240WHP run to cars more similar to what most people have.

Vortech Supercharger Kit on a BRZ with PERRIN 2.5" Headerback Exhaust System (w/Oil cooler)
VS.
Stock FR-S with PERRIN ECUTEK Tune (Stock exhaust)


Vortech Supercharger Kit on a BRZ with PERRIN 2.5" Headerback Exhaust System (w/Oil cooler)
VS.
BRZ with PERRIN 2.5" Headerback Exhaust System (No ECU Tune)


Jeff, this isn't the same graph you posted in your build thread. In fact, your second dyno posted in that thread is this....

http://blog.perrinperformance.com/wp...k-1000x625.jpg

Those are the numbers I'm disputing. 80whp =/= 55whp. So the difference between these two is one is stock and the other is "stock" with a perrin tune. Doing the math, it's not actually 80, but 76. Ok, so people with a tune only see 55whp, and people without a tune will see 76whp. I that's a difference of 21whp, yet your base dynos show tunes only making a difference of 13. They are also labelled differently. Did you mix and match graphs from different cars for your comparisons? By your own admission, that's a no no....


I feel much better after all this. I really hate when people don't believe dyno graphs or any kind of data we provide. I also hate when the when people say our dyno lies or we fudge numbers.

The absolute first picture posted in that thread resembling anything like a dyno is your fudged numbers comparing it directly with an AVO. I have stated in the past my distaste for such tactics considering neither your "dyno" or their "dyno" is accurate in the image. I understand you did it "to show the differences in power band", but it's just bad taste and doesn't accurately depict the differences at all. So yes, you do post fudged numbers in certain regards.

I don't want other onlookers to EVER have that impression, which is why I went to these efforts.

Jeff, I don't have anything personally against you. I appreciate the level of transparency you go through publicly on the forum. Innovate could learn a thing or two from that... However, I'm not saying you're posting lies about the vortech kit. I just want the FULL story. If you made 80whp, I want to know how, and I'm sure all the people who paid the thousands of dollars for this kit would love the extra 30whp. I don't buy the ECU tune as being the only difference, because the numbers don't add up. I pulled 175whp on a dynojet without an ECU tune and my only mod being an exhaust. You can't deduct an exhausts power from the gains of a SC when you're defending low third party gains, and then add the exhausts power in your advertising numbers for the kit. Did you ever post a dyno sheet with JUST the supercharger kit without any other modification (including pulley)? I can't seem to find one. If anything, the exhaust should only add to your gains as it helps the engine breath better. By your logic, if a car already has a tune, header and full exhaust... will they only gain, say, 30whp total with the SC? Is there a power ceiling you're implying?

[Huehuecoyotl]

I think this is a good time to ask @Yruyur to provide feedback from his time at the track this weekend watching the FI 86 shootout and his extended test drive in my 240whp SC vortech car

here is a cut and paste from our regional thread

Originally Posted by Yruyur

Had a blast at today. Swapped exhaust with ninjin at the track, hung out for a few hours with that group then met up with the other half of the group for the tortilla flat run. Thanks again brent.

Mook wanted to try my e85 all the way back to tempe so i got to drive his brz.....supercharger..


Dear god. Thing is amazing. Linear power from bottom to top as I was hoping and more than enough power for me.

I really wished he could have had his car in the shootout yesterday.

Omg. I have not giggled out loud since I first test drove my car. And I kept doing it today. Hopefully his wife didn't think that i was too strange lol as she was in the car with me.

Nate with the genesis 2.0t and I did 4 80mph rolling starts on the freeway and the brz pulled away every single time!

One of these days... but for now I'm still on the fence of what to do with my car next.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

[Yruyur]

I would have to say the car felt amazing. Suspension does need to be softened up in the back. Straight line pull to pass a car and I could feel the back getting a little squirly. I think the setup looks fantastic under the hood now that I have seen it in person. Hell could be stock.

Such I nice driving car, felt like it was breathing so much better and just wanted to go.

Sent from my GT-P3113 using Tapatalk 2

[Huehuecoyotl]

Just wanted to update, new softer springs on the rear from GC installed! updating the thread under suspension...
also, I found a chart I got from Vortech a while back that was nested in some emails, not sure how I missed posting it:

This was a mid tuning run, so I dont think it was final

Interestingly Vortech got 243HP on a 3rd party dyno we used in California
They scored a lower TQ, at that time, but made about the same HP

Looking closely at my run in PHX(middle pic), it does look like I made more TQ in the end, and if I made the same HP at 1500 feet (239.5) as I did at sea level, I'd say these are all conservative figures

I will post a dyno in post #3 when I am done tuning and I am at sea level, for reference sake.

I attached a boost plot from sea level, for those who are interested, I had to crop certain data,but you can see the boost I made at sea level vs 'other tested setups'
yes, more boost to come

[Adeets]

Originally Posted by PERRIN_Jeff

Stuff






Here is the boost curve from one of the runs previous.....

Is this the new compressor vortech just announced?

[sw20kosh]

on that 300WHP graph... why does the torque take a nose dive at 6700. Yes I know VE of engine is not great up there but it shouldn't just plummet that dramatically.

[Huehuecoyotl]

Originally Posted by Adeets

Is this the new compressor vortech just announced?

Yes it is.

That 300whp run is Jeff having fun, and likely the systems limits, that may be a better display of what can be done, not what we should all be doing. My aim is just a hair south of that number for safety sake.

Indeed, he is having alot of fun and so am I. I can share a little more today:

Since the cat is outta the bag, I will say i have been testing the 10psi version of this kit of late, and the 3.48 pulley supplied is just the icing on the cake at its 243-250whp.

Its good, its very good, its the poon before the tang. The donut, not the jelly. It just keeps getting better for me so I am sorry if I am bubbling over with enthusiasm. the 10 psi setup crosses the line for me. ymmv. it gets me to PAST 'enough'.

I think 99% of even the most enthusiastic FRS/BRZ drivers will find what they came for , here at 10psi.

I plan to baseline again at the dyno what the 10psi got me before I add a future wastegate, and EBC to give me the most control on how far I want to be able to push it, and feel safe. I will explore 11 psi and maybe beyond, but you wont see my car running more than 12psi as a final solution.

Once you go to the 3.33" pulley, you're at 10psi. Does it feel better than 9?It makes my car officially scary.So yeah, call me biased, call me whatever, the boost feels awesome, Perrins tune is friggin awesome to bury my foot into This the real deal.

Guys, while I would be the last person to ever tell you to not buy the Vortech kit direct from Vortech, I do want to give credit where it is due- the guys at Vortech put together a stellar 9-13.5psi kit just fine its the bees knees, the bulls balls, it makes me get in trouble with the wife who now prefers I slow down, and she is right, the car gets fast, fast!

BUT....
I would say unless you absolutely need the Vortech/Carb tune, the Perrin tune is where its at. Hell yeah.

the tune I am running from Perrin is by the seat of my pants faster than the tune file that I got from Vortech, same pulley. The file I got from vortech didnt 'like' the 3.33. Jeffs tune file *loves* it
I have not flashed back to the Vortech tune. Not sure if I will, tho that is the version the wife will likely run on her DD car @ 250whp/3.48". I'm running thsi so far without a wastegate, but there are some safety concerns checks on Jeff's side that i am still waiting to hear back on.

For getting silly and sideways at the track, holy cow guys, I want to take my hat off to Perrin, for making the cake, better. Its like he added the 'special ingredients'. It is where my rubber officially exceeds its limits with the extra 1psi, you wouldnt think it matters, but it does. I want to make sure I convey that 'zone' for this cars chassis, anything over 260whp is spooge territory.

So as of today they released 9psi kit boost will get ya right about 250 whp. I'm getting 243, and I chalk it off to gas and altitude, variance, etc, I'm confident I could get a 'best run' to get me another 5-6 horsies.

My butt dyno says 10psi of boost with a Perrin tune must be feeling like almost 255- prolly closer to 260hp at the wheels, knowing what 240-243 feels like. Could 11psi be 265-270? 12psi 275-280? 13psi 290? and the 14psi limit is at 300whp? yes, I tend to think so. Hello smaller pulley(s)

Today 10, one day 11psi, then 12. Stay tuned. Dynos next week of 10psi @ 1500 feet in PHX.

Originally Posted by sw20kosh

on that 300WHP graph... why does the torque take a nose dive at 6700. Yes I know VE of engine is not great up there but it shouldn't just plummet that dramatically.

I see the motor tolerating more boost below this RPM, over this RPM, adding too much air too soon hurts, not helps, and while this may change in the future as of today, to run more boost that i am running now you need a wastergate, so for Jeff to be pushing 11,12,13,14 psi and making that king of power, he must be blowing off boost at carefully selected point(s) to make the motor do its thing. I find myself shifting around 7000, while it keeps pulling, yes TQ peak has passed, so its time to shift and go back for that TQ peak. I like how it works, you gotta drive it to get a good grip on what it is.

[jflogerzi]

Nice updates. For us in CA SC's are our only option.

[so26]

Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl

... the car gets fast, fast!

Can you quantify this statement with some real world numbers e.g. 1/4 mile times with trap speeds. That would be worth a 1000 words.

[Huehuecoyotl]

Originally Posted by so26

Can you quantify this statement with some real world numbers e.g. 1/4 mile times with trap speeds. That would be worth a 1000 words.

I totally hear you

I have no plans for drag strip time till my budget allows for a higher tq clutch(there IS slippage with OE when at 9/10s+), however I would be glad to get a 3rd party or in car 0-60 time/video and 1/4 mile informally when I am in PHX next with the car as is,.... with the catch...if by that time, I get the green light from the Boss, Jeff, who is reviewing logs I am pretty much sending in daily for the past few days.... doing more logging than timing of speed traps, but sure I'd be agreeable to getting you what I can on my next trip down the valley if thinks look stable for my setup.