Tein Active EDFC?? Yes please :)

[ZDan]

This system is not ANYTHING LIKE the active suspensions used by Williams and other F1 teams in the 90s.

Damping that "self-adjusts" according to g's doesn't make sense to me. You would want the damping to stiffen *before* you develop maximum g's, not after you've gotten there. Also, it looks like it only self-adjusts for longitudinal accelerations, not lateral? But even if it does respond to lateral g's, again you'd want the outside dampers to stiffen *as you're going from no cornering to max cornering gs*, NOT after you've attained max g's.

Anyway, my experience with manually adjustable damping has been that I like one setting for the street and a slightly stiffer (one or two clicks) setting for the track. IMO, once the damping is about "right" for your usage, shouldn't be all that much benefit to it changing on the fly.

A system that monitors suspension stroke real-time and can respond very quickly could be a big advantage. A system that merely adds or takes away clicks based only on vehicle speed and accel/decel, not so much. Imo...

[Acree]

How many times per second do the shocks adjust their dampening?

[Racecomp Engineering]

I don't understand why a lot of these active suspension systems focus on using vehicle speed as the input, or at least use it the way that they do.

- Andy

[d1ck]

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

I don't understand why a lot of these active suspension systems focus on using vehicle speed as the input, or at least use it the way that they do.

- Andy

I'm probably a bit over my head here but I'm guessing it is for confidence. I imagine stiffer damping results in a "twitchy" drive, and is likely a bit un-nerving at speed for those who aren't seasoned racers.

[Racecomp Engineering]

The charts show the damper getting firmer at higher speeds. That's fine if the surface is smooth, but the sensors don't know that. Speed really isn't the thing to base everything on.

Active suspension in F1 was mostly done for aerodynamics.

- Andy

[DougW]

Speed at least on our package is use to stabilize the car above 80mph on the street it isn't much help on a track where you are in turns and above 80 most of the time. The main purpose of these reactive systems is to give a good street ride and track handling. If you don't care about the street drive then a set of 2 ways will be about the same. We are able to use the lat g sensor to bring the shocks in above .2 Gs and progress up to 1 g, the lng G helps under braking not so much with accel as the hp just isn't enough. Until you drive these don't knock them this is what is going to be on every performance car in the next few years just like EFI was the odd thing a few years back. I tested the Damptronic on a shock dyno with travel pots and could build about any curve real time while that isn't going on the FR-S it is on the new Porsche with pots on every A arm, pretty cool stuff.
Thanks
DougW

[Racecomp Engineering]

What I want is lidar (frickin lasers). Read the road surface in front of each tire and adjust the dampers accordingly.

We have the technology!

- Andy

[Lauren]

Originally Posted by ZDan

This system is not ANYTHING LIKE the active suspensions used by Williams and other F1 teams in the 90s.

Damping that "self-adjusts" according to g's doesn't make sense to me. You would want the damping to stiffen *before* you develop maximum g's, not after you've gotten there. Also, it looks like it only self-adjusts for longitudinal accelerations, not lateral? But even if it does respond to lateral g's, again you'd want the outside dampers to stiffen *as you're going from no cornering to max cornering gs*, NOT after you've attained max g's.

Anyway, my experience with manually adjustable damping has been that I like one setting for the street and a slightly stiffer (one or two clicks) setting for the track. IMO, once the damping is about "right" for your usage, shouldn't be all that much benefit to it changing on the fly.

A system that monitors suspension stroke real-time and can respond very quickly could be a big advantage. A system that merely adds or takes away clicks based only on vehicle speed and accel/decel, not so much. Imo...

My system adjusts for lateral G so it stiffens the outside dampers when cornering relative to G-force. It increases gradually according to G-meter readings which you can configure to do what ever you want.

In what I've seen it makes a big difference and change to damping stiffness happens very quickly.

From only having it on my car for the last four days, I've been blown away tbh by just how effective it feels compared to a static standard setup.

[DougW]

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

What I want is lidar (frickin lasers). Read the road surface in front of each tire and adjust the dampers accordingly.

We have the technology!

- Andy

Write the check and we can begin, all things are possible.
DougW

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Lauren

My system adjusts for lateral G so it stiffens the outside dampers when cornering relative to G-force. It increases gradually according to G-meter readings which you can configure to do what ever you want.

I definitely wouldn't want stiffer damping with increasing g's. I want the dampers to act to initially slow roll rate but then to soften for mechanical grip during cornering at max g's. Normal dampers actually already do this, as the car rolls, damping forces go up with the roll rate. At max roll rate, NOT max g-s, you naturally get max low-speed damping force resisting roll. At max g's, no change in body roll, low-speed damping forces are small.

I wouldn't think you'd want high-speed damping to be affected so that tire/road contact is maintained over road irregularities while cornering. Presumably the system only changes low-speed damping?

In what I've seen it makes a big difference and change to damping stiffness happens very quickly.
From only having it on my car for the last four days, I've been blown away tbh by just how effective it feels compared to a static standard setup.

I still don't think increasing damping with cornering g's is the way to do it. I think it would be better if it varied damping with the *rate of change* in cornering g's. That would give softer damping in a straight line and at max sustained g's, and stiffer damping between turn-in and max g's. But again, standard non-self-adjusting dampers already do this to some degree.

[DougW]

Originally Posted by ZDan

I definitely wouldn't want stiffer damping with increasing g's. I want the dampers to act to initially slow roll rate but then to soften for mechanical grip during cornering at max g's. Normal dampers actually already do this, as the car rolls, damping forces go up with the roll rate. At max roll rate, NOT max g-s, you naturally get max low-speed damping force resisting roll. At max g's, no change in body roll, low-speed damping forces are small.

I wouldn't think you'd want high-speed damping to be affected so that tire/road contact is maintained over road irregularities while cornering. Presumably the system only changes low-speed damping?


I still don't think increasing damping with cornering g's is the way to do it. I think it would be better if it varied damping with the *rate of change* in cornering g's. That would give softer damping in a straight line and at max sustained g's, and stiffer damping between turn-in and max g's. But again, standard non-self-adjusting dampers already do this to some degree.

They are both still shocks and unlike MR fluid they still have normal valving, I don't know about the Tein shocks but the Bilstein,s have a series of pressure relief valves that are changed by bleeding off with a solenoid so it has the largest effect on low speed but is fast enough that a regressive curve is possible with travel sensors. You can map them for any performance or just to be a shock and do nothing like a 2 way. Same conversation was had over Carb/EFI, The customers will tell the tale and based on Viper SRT, Porshe, BMW, Audi and Corvette all going this way I believe it is here to stay.
DougW
DougW

[Lauren]

Originally Posted by ZDan

I definitely wouldn't want stiffer damping with increasing g's. I want the dampers to act to initially slow roll rate but then to soften for mechanical grip during cornering at max g's. Normal dampers actually already do this, as the car rolls, damping forces go up with the roll rate. At max roll rate, NOT max g-s, you naturally get max low-speed damping force resisting roll. At max g's, no change in body roll, low-speed damping forces are small.

I wouldn't think you'd want high-speed damping to be affected so that tire/road contact is maintained over road irregularities while cornering. Presumably the system only changes low-speed damping?


I still don't think increasing damping with cornering g's is the way to do it. I think it would be better if it varied damping with the *rate of change* in cornering g's. That would give softer damping in a straight line and at max sustained g's, and stiffer damping between turn-in and max g's. But again, standard non-self-adjusting dampers already do this to some degree.

I think you need to try it really before you'll get a feel for how it works. I drove a friend's car with it (Active Pro has only been out a few months) and was the first GT in the UK to have it fitted. I had mine setup by Tein UK last Thursday.

The thing is in practice it works extraordinarily well. But this all depends upon what you want out of a suspension setup. I drive 30K miles a year, I compete in a sprint series and also do a few trackdays.

For me, I can have my cake and eat it. The ride is better than stock but when I up my game so does the damping and it firms up when you need it to.

The speed variation is useful and important. Mine doesn't increase in stiffness until I go over 60 km/h. Then it increases in stiffness right up to 200km/h which is just as far as I set it to. The lateral G increases are stepped and you can make these small or large and obviously independent at the front and the rear.

The reality is, you're cruising down an A road, you increase your speed the dampers firm up so you don't get that floaty feeling you otherwise would have were they on a softer setting of lower speeds and then when you being to corner the dampers increase stiffness from 0.15g onwards. You can custom set what happens at what G-force levels or you can select a linear mode which may be better for track work. Obviously you can just set them at any level manually so they are static on a scale of 0-64, so plenty of adjustment.

I too was a little sceptical until I drove a friend's car, but the way it worked astonished me. I have had the benefit of setup with the biggest UK tuner of GT86's and the manager of Tein UK with a lot of stuff going to and fro between Japan and the UK. I also have custom spring rates on mine.

I think it's hard to conceptualise how it might work and there are always those that just won't believe something like this can be any good, but for my needs it serves the purpose very well indeed.

Of course the beauty is, you can simply set it up to do exactly what you want.

The system that was talked about on this thread is the Active system which is an older setup that does not manage to do lateral g-force. The Pro version which I have has the ability to adjust each damper individually. The valving allows adjusts compression and rebound at the same time, so the effect is an increase throughout the range.

[Lauren]

Just to show it isn't too low!

[img]Untitled by Lauren Blighton, on Flickr[/img]

[img]Untitled by Lauren Blighton, on Flickr[/img]

Had a chance to have a punt at a fast A road today in Cheshire. I'm still constantly suprised by how good it is. As soon as you put the hammer down, it just tightens right up, feels very stable in fast corners as the dampers go nearly full stiff on the outside and then you come out the exit the increase in stiffness with speed helps the car just to stick to the road, never getting unsetled, then a bit of stiffening at the front and rear under braking and as you make the transition for a bend it increases stiffness on the outside dampers again. Slow down for a 30mph limit and it's back to a comfortable ride once more. Happy days so far.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by DougW

They are both still shocks and unlike MR fluid they still have normal valving, I don't know about the Tein shocks but the Bilstein,s have a series of pressure relief valves that are changed by bleeding off with a solenoid so it has the largest effect on low speed but is fast enough that a regressive curve is possible with travel sensors.

From what I read, it sounds like the Tein system just has actuators to do the normal knob-twiddling for you on the fly.

You can map them for any performance or just to be a shock and do nothing like a 2 way. Same conversation was had over Carb/EFI, The customers will tell the tale and based on Viper SRT, Porshe, BMW, Audi and Corvette all going this way I believe it is here to stay.

I don't think the electro-mechanical knob-turning approach has as much promise as magneto-rheological or the Bilstein approach you mentioned.

Also, I think that varying damping with vehicle speed and g's is an overly simplistic and misguided approach. I wouldn't want my damping to be adjusted that way! On my street/track cars that have had manually adjustable dampers, I've found the optimal street and track setups to be pretty damn close, anyway. I wouldn't want an electro-mechanical device to crank in significantly more damping when I'm at max cornering, or at higher speeds.