Need For Speed... Really?

[gmookher]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

Wow I give you credit for having that much experience and still wanting to use the OEM tires! I got bored with them quick, had to slow down too much

ditto

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by ironchef

Any recommendations on DE groups that are good besides PCA? It seems folks dont have the highest opinions of NASA or Chin based on this forum and other forums I've read.

Well you'll find NASA and SCCA will have a love/hate relationship.

Chin's cons are the membership fee and (for novices) the price. They charge an "instructor" fee of $75 if you need an instructor.

Chin used to be AWESOME. Completely open track day, drive when you want. But that changed many years ago Now it's OK. I still like Chin and happy hour is fun (4-5PM open track like the old days). For Solo groups in Chin you basically have to be OK with passing anywhere on track (and/or being passed anywhere on track). It still requires a point-by so I have no issues with it, but I'm also used to wheel to wheel racing so I'm very comfortable being close to other cars on track, others may find it to be a con.

I'm not sure who else you guys have up in ATL. CMP isn't too bad of a drive from there and the Turn 1 events are well run and it's a fun track.

There's SAFE Motorsports but I'm not sure how far north they go either

[Texas BRZ]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

Wow I give you credit for having that much experience and still wanting to use the OEM tires! I got bored with them quick, had to slow down too much

Originally Posted by gmookher

ditto

I'm very humbled actually... I appreciate it.

After my first few events 3 years ago with my modified high-power car, I decided to move into lower-powered (and more affordable) new cars, which required little maintenance / stress, so I could focus more on my foundations as a driver. In turn, I never got an opportunity to modify because I got so busy focusing on myself, and how much I wanted to reach that pace I desired to be at. I kept finding areas where I was very weak (I still do, of course). And now, I'm finally getting to the point where I'm fast enough and on a higher run level, and am considering modifying the car within the areas which may need some minor attention.

FYI, I've been a slow learner... Hence the seat time to get up to speed on where I needed to be.

By the way, with an experienced driver, the Prius tires can be great fun... But at the same time, they can be frustrating if you're a driver who has become accustomed to higher speeds on a road course... The problem is that I've never been introduced to driving at those higher speeds which you may be used to from your past. I guess I've become used to driving a slow car very fast (and with little to no modification), but it may not be fast from your own experience level because you may be used to managing higher speeds compared to myself.

Originally Posted by ironchef

Any recommendations on DE groups that are good besides PCA? It seems folks dont have the highest opinions of NASA or Chin based on this forum and other forums I've read.

Thankfully, I feel that I attend with one of the more efficient DE organizations in my state... I don't know where to point you at, but I hope you run into one where you can really value spending your time at, now and in the future.

[orthojoe]

Although my experience isn't with a BRZ (still awaiting delivery of mine), I thought I'd throw in my experience with upgrading tires.

Like you, I was very hesitant to move up to R compound tires for quite some time. It took me almost 3 years to finally do it. I held off for the exact same reasons you did. I didn't feel like I was ready, and I needed more experience with car control. My biggest concern was was that supposedly R compound tires give no audible warning and will suddenly break away.

Be warned, if you go R comp, you will never want to go back. When I finally decided to give in and move from NT05/PS2 street compound tires to NT01 R compound tires, it was the most fun I had in a while. Contrary to popular belief on R compounds, NT01s still give good audible feedback and breakaway progressively. The street tires (at least my NT05s and PS2s) were a lot more twitchy and unpredictable than the NT01s. My lap times dropped over 5 seconds at Thunderhill and Laguna Seca with the NT01s. 5 seconds are not just from the tires. They were also from the confidence inspired by the predicable manner in which the NT01s behaved. Most importantly, I had a lot more fun with driving on NT01s. It sounds like you're more than ready to move up. Do it, and you'll have no regrets and will never look back. That's what happened to me.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by orthojoe

Although my experience isn't with a BRZ (still awaiting delivery of mine), I thought I'd throw in my experience with upgrading tires.

Like you, I was very hesitant to move up to R compound tires for quite some time. It took me almost 3 years to finally do it. I held off for the exact same reasons you did. I didn't feel like I was ready, and I needed more experience with car control. My biggest concern was was that supposedly R compound tires give no audible warning and will suddenly break away.

Be warned, if you go R comp, you will never want to go back. When I finally decided to give in and move from NT05/PS2 street compound tires to NT01 R compound tires, it was the most fun I had in a while. Contrary to popular belief on R compounds, NT01s still give good audible feedback and breakaway progressively. The street tires (at least my NT05s and PS2s) were a lot more twitchy and unpredictable than the NT01s. My lap times dropped over 5 seconds at Thunderhill and Laguna Seca with the NT01s. 5 seconds are not just from the tires. They were also from the confidence inspired by the predicable manner in which the NT01s behaved. Most importantly, I had a lot more fun with driving on NT01s. It sounds like you're more than ready to move up. Do it, and you'll have no regrets and will never look back. That's what happened to me.

Out of curiosity, what did you run before/after the NT01 at MRLS, and what mods did you have on your EvoX?

[robispec]

r compounds are the most fun you can have with your clothes on PERIOD...;-)

Robi

[Vracer111]

+1 on what orthojoe said about the Nitto NT-01's... basically like a street tire on steroids, really similar to the Hankook RS-3 to me, but with more grip. They also ride really smooth as well...better than street tires. Once the tread starts going down they do get pretty noisy (well they are basically turning into 1 continuous surface with just 2 circumferential grooves once you get to the wear bars...) Not much more expensive than Hankook RS-3's either.

I say switch to a set of 215/45-17 Nitto NT-01's for track duty and have a blast... you have plenty of experience and should be ready to progress beyond stock tires with some DOT-R's that give similar feedback but at higher limits. Might want to get something to keep you against the seat better though...you will be pulling more G's in the corners. G's are what make you all warm and fuzzy while on track, especially the first time going from street to DOT-R... which will also make you realize there is a lot of force acting on the wheel studs and you may want to upgrade from the factory ones to feel more comfortable with all the track use your car is seeing, especially if going to DOT-R rubber.

[rice_classic]

Almost nothing on a car and how it relates to a race track is independent of itself. What I'm trying to say is, the car is a package and when you change 1 thing, it affects the whole package.

If you change from your Primacy's to something like a shaved RA1 or a Hoosier R6 the changes to the "package" will be:

1: Increased cornering forces which will increase wear (or decrease lifespan) on wheel bearings, hubs, ball joints, tie rods and bushings.

2: Faster corner exit speed combined with more grip under braking so now you're braking later and carrying more speed into the braking zone... Much more heat will be generated with all that kinetic energy being converted to heat. This will affect the brakes, of course, but it also puts more heat into the hub and wheel bearing also decreasing lifespan.

I don't think R-Comps are any more fun at a lapping day, period. But, learning a new tire (heck, learning a new anything) is always fun. So go get some R-comps (consider used ones) and go have fun learning a new tire but it is my opinion that if you're not competing then running R-comps is just being unnecessarily hard on your equipment so once you've learned them you'll be able to make that assessment for yourself. Not everyone agrees, as I'm kind of atypical because I'm not a "g-force junky".

R-Comps get the "break away without warning" reputation due to their temperature demands but in reality it's not the case. R-Comps don't function worth a damn unless their hot.. not 120F hot but 170F+ hot... Example: Hoosier R6 (road race compound) does alright from about 120+ but the Hankook C51 is like being on ice until it's over 130F and doesn't really grip until after 160F (target temp is 180-220F).

So R-comps, when they're up to temp are pretty forgiving tires with he exception that they don't make noise (or at least as loud as street tires) and when you do lose grip you're carrying a lot more speed and G's so there's more momentum acting on them.

Another thing to consider about the dynamics of a tire losing grip is the length of the wheel base. The Subion has a good length chassis while my CRX is a death trap.

Here's a vid compilation I made with lots of spinning on R-comp tires. Some FWD drifting some spinning. The footage in the 2nd half of video with me spinning is most due to cold tires and you see how fast and violently they let go... the one where I completely go around just about cost me my car. The uncontrolled lost of traction is either due to cold R-comps or car with a too short of wheelbase that I stupidly keep racing anyway!

And this happened 3 corners into the 1st lap of this race with cold Hankook C51's on the rear of the car. Not the race I was hoping to have (lots of $$ in body work ahead). I'm no longer running C51s and next year I will be exclusively running Hoosier R6's.

[rice_classic]

Also, if you want to get more out of your track time.... Definitely get this before your next trip out:

http://www.aim-sportline.com/pages/solo/index.htm

[diirk]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

Also, if you want to get more out of your track time.... Definitely get this before your next trip out:

http://www.aim-sportline.com/pages/solo/index.htm

I like the AIM timer but dang that's pricey. Can't you accomplish the same thing with Harry's Lap timer (iPhone) or TrackMaster (Android)?

[orthojoe]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Out of curiosity, what did you run before/after the NT01 at MRLS, and what mods did you have on your EvoX?

Refer to here to see what mods the Evo X had:
http://www.evoxforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70895

I have not run the Evo X at MRLS with the NT01s because the car won't pass sound and the brakes overheat there even on street tires.

The 5 second drop at MRLS on NT01s was with my Boxster Spyder. The car is stock with the exception of adjustable lower control arms. Here's a video of the run:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Wyo5I9iQKc"]Boxster Spyder @ Laguna Seca 1:45 lap time - YouTube[/ame]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

Almost nothing on a car and how it relates to a race track is independent of itself. What I'm trying to say is, the car is a package and when you change 1 thing, it affects the whole package.

If you change from your Primacy's to something like a shaved RA1 or a Hoosier R6 the changes to the "package" will be:

1: Increased cornering forces which will increase wear (or decrease lifespan) on wheel bearings, hubs, ball joints, tie rods and bushings.

2: Faster corner exit speed combined with more grip under braking so now you're braking later and carrying more speed into the braking zone... Much more heat will be generated with all that kinetic energy being converted to heat. This will affect the brakes, of course, but it also puts more heat into the hub and wheel bearing also decreasing lifespan.

You make a great point here. Yes, increase wear on car components should be considered with moving up to R comps. Some cars are up to the task, and some are not. It will be interesting to see how the BRZ/FRS holds up as we learn more over time. Also, the stock suspension is not tuned for R comps. It is tuned for the primacy tires.

Originally Posted by rice_classic

Also, if you want to get more out of your track time.... Definitely get this before your next trip out:

http://www.aim-sportline.com/pages/solo/index.htm

I'm a big fan of the AiM Solo DL. It's been a great help and very fun to use. The software is a bit difficult to figure out, but once you do, you'll realize it's the most powerful one available right now. I make my videos using my AiM solo DL, gopro cameras, adobe premier elements, and trackvision:

(my first time on R comps)
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ViTF1ybixY"]Best lap yet at Thunderhill in the Evo X - YouTube[/ame]

Originally Posted by diirk

I like the AIM timer but dang that's pricey. Can't you accomplish the same thing with Harry's Lap timer (iPhone) or TrackMaster (Android)?

I tried HLT, and while on paper it seems like a great value, it doesn't stand up next to the Solo. My biggest issue with HLT was consistency. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't. The data from HLT is interpolated, so iirc only 1 out of 20 data points is real and the others are 'fake'. I moved up to Solo and never looked back. I'm looking forward to trying it out on my BRZ since the Solo DL is compatible with the BRZ/FRS ECU. When I track my BRZ, it will be totally stock until I learn more about the car.

[johhnc479]

There should really be 4 categories we're talking about here:
OEM and similar
High Performance Street
gateway drug R compound (RA-1 and similar)
full addiction R compund (Hoosier and similar)

I think the difference between each category is similar in scale.

[track_warrior]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

Also, if you want to get more out of your track time.... Definitely get this before your next trip out:

http://www.aim-sportline.com/pages/solo/index.htm

X2 a good lap timer will help you see your mistakes.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by diirk

I like the AIM timer but dang that's pricey. Can't you accomplish the same thing with Harry's Lap timer (iPhone) or TrackMaster (Android)?

Yes and no. You can try ours for a session if you'd like

The AIM is a full standalone that polls at 10 hz, while the phone apps poll at 1 hz unless you get an external GPS.

More importantly, the data analysis software and predictive timing is key to REALLY utilizing a logger.


I use a Racepak G2X in my s2k, which I think is a better unit than the AIM (but also costs more than double...)