Do you plan to track your car?

[Texas BRZ]

Yes... Although my goal is to fundamentally build and modify the idiot behind the wheel (me!). I'm restricting myself to modifying the car itself, and only doing so 'as needed'. May eventually go deeper into modifying the car after I've become a fully capable driver and moved up to the Advanced / Instructor run group. Will take additional time and experience, of course...

Heading to start my 6th two-day DE event (within this specific car) in an hour or so.

[johhnc479]

Why do all the poll questions assume mods? (I don't count tires and brake pads/fluids as mods)

[King Tut]

I would count those as modifications to the car. I don't know if I am going to be able to resist tracking mine. I thought about it some more, and I think I will give it a go this winter before racing season next year.

[gmookher]

Originally Posted by johhnc479

Why do all the poll questions assume mods? (I don't count tires and brake pads/fluids as mods)

The stock vehicle has much to 'unlock' as a DD, even a STG1 tune and exhaust from the same vendor went a long way, as both complimented eachother. Its a joy to track even with just a tune, catback and tires.
So, I assumed mods for this poll.

As of this posting its at 72% folks plan to take this thing to the track, on a post in the FI section.

Since I am on the Forced Induction band wagon, I wanted to see if I could correlate the interest in turbos on this forum, vs the interest in different types of SC, with the desired outcome folks have. To track or not to track, that WAS the question.

I hang out with some guys at the track and we all take turns driving eachothers cars. We build our cars for track time, not hwy passing. I have alot of fun, driven some turbo cars (280,300 style chassis, my favorite being the 300TT), m3(e30,e36,e46,e92,f30 chassis some of these are turbo,bmw's newer steering really sucks) mini(wow with R compounds, wow), vettes(fun to race would never own one), miatas, s2000-(another great fun car for track that I never want to own)

In real world greasy hot track settings, running in intermediate groups, I think I actually drive BETTER and my buddies tell me the same for their experiences- in the NA cars I've driven than on the turbos, excluding the Mini, and they find the same experience themselves, tho we have faster times on the straights in turbos, we spend much more time correcting corners on the turbo cars. Lil more white knuckled..

Bigger boosted turbos actually translate to less fun in turns, which is where our car shines on track. There IS such a thing as too much power too soon, I think. Tho, few things can compete with the G forces of Boost straight out of corner, for fun, its another thing to be precise enough corner after corner to consistently lay that down with vsc off, which is the faster way around the track. There is a point where vsc enegages where you just dont want or need it to at higher speeds tossing it thru twisties

One of the guys has a NSX thats balls fast, its turbo'd and he eats most cars on the straights. Vettes included. He also spends a bit of of time in the gravel, and we poke fun at him for it.

The turbo is fun, dont get me wrong, but he says he cant apply throttle when I do, he has to wait till he is outta the turn. Off the track, its a non issue.

Based on the poll results, tho a small sample pool, seems lots of folks want to track their cars. The interest in turbos seems high to me givenhow much track interest there is.

If you look at the map, turn#1 gets greasy on the exit, and laying down power here is critical if you plan to pass anyone on the straight. I had a hard time with the newer M3, between the vague feedbacklessness and the power..
but once hooked up a big v8 or a turbo car is perfect for this section, straight ahead full speed

I would be concerned about laying down too much power too early in the power band in turn#4, Too much power is NOT your friend in a smallish track setting, with tight-assed turns, Btw, BMW seems to have really messed up their new electric steering system. While the car is FINE on the street, its twitchy like a crack-junky when compared to our FT86 on track in power mode.

This made me think of my BRZ, which, for electric steering, does a far better job than BMW, at feedback and is nowhere as wonky a ratio. yeah, I really missed my BRZ, and asked the wife to take the e92, as my e36 is the closest thing (we own)to the purist driving experience the FT86 offers us.

Those of you who dont plan to track, well, you dont know what youre missing. Sorry if that is not what you wanted to hear. In my eyes, its like buying hiking boots and never leaving NYC to go see the wonders of nature on a hike upstate. Sure, that rugged outfitter look is in, I get that.

As you all know, my car is at Vortech getting worked. Recent posts from the vendors suggested smaller pulleys would equal more power.
DO I want more power? How much more gets squirrelly?

After today, and this poll, perhaps I need to reel myself back in to more realistic USABLE goals, I dont want too much supercharger either. I wonder, those of you who already have FI FT86 and have track time, what are you finding?

I definatley think for track use, too much power too soon on a car so light is not your friend. Tho it would be nice to eat a vette in my BRZ.

the poll is just to see if folks are serious about the car's build destiny, which is to get the noobs out on to tracks, reinvent driving enthusiasts as opposed to brand enthusiasts, and compel track junkies to help drive forward the aftermarkets development for this platform. Toyota may as well have sold a FI car, removed the FI parts and sold us our cars for $25 to 27K, seems they knew we'd add FI

Seems the sky is the limit on what the car can do when you build right, and it built right when driving cars costing 2x to 3x as much make you miss IT.

Thanks for playing the Track Poll game. No offense intended at anyone, no matter how you voted. Cant wait to get my upgraded BRZ back, now back to upgrading the driver!

[robispec]

nice post I think the physics of 58% front weight in most FI installations will prove how hard it will be to get the weight transfer needed to go fast corner off...

We do have the oil co0ler solved and added a huge radiator at the same time (been a fan of oil to water coolers for a long time!(and on this car will leave room for the brake ducts)

[gmookher]

Originally Posted by robispec

nice post I think the physics of 58% front weight in most FI installations will prove how hard it will be to get the weight transfer needed to go fast corner off...

The ideal weight distribution should theoretically be 50/50 but then again many super cars and Formula 1 cars do not have the ideal weight distribution.

There is more than one way to manage 'how to put power down' and it isn't only accomplished only by running a wide(r) tire.That often affects handling negatively if you are not careful.

You probably know that raising the spring rate in the back of the car puts the CG more forward dynamically speaking. I'm talking on and off throttle non braked dive and squat. Raising the front spring rate of the car pushes the CG more rearward. Millimeters DO matter when a you set balance, ride height,select roll coupling rates, and tires if what youre trying to do is fix a problem like rear traction. At that point youre not buying all the same brand etc. You may need something other than the fixed spring rates offered by some coilover outfits to solve traction defecits.

If you look at the physics of it you can easily see a few basic things why many sports cars cars have some front bias:

1) Under acceleration the weight is transferred(aka squat) to the rear end of the vehicle so in terms of that the 55/45 split becomes closer towards a 50/50 weight distribution - and may well achieve that,which is why the vehicle seems unsettled when you let off the throttle abruptly in high speed corners in its stock format. They want you to 'like' throttle out of a corner and this achieves this. However, this can be somewhat adjusted with spring rates and damping forces.Ideally for a race car, the rear end will loose grip before the front end does (the front has more weight on it therefore it has more traction), and you really dont WANT understeer. Not in racecar.

2) In a FWD car, it is ideal to have more weight on the front end because it will prevent/counter the inherent understeer, the rear end will loose grip before the front end does (the front has more weight on it therefore it has more traction) and this can, again, be somewhat adjusted with spring rates and damping forces.

I like a slight Oversteering car because you can solve it by controlling the throttle in corners. Understeering cars makes you slower, forces you to brake early and to enter corners at a slower speed than neutral / slighty oversteering cars. Sometimes-regardless of magazine speak, unless youre a PRO driver, which of course we all are, a little front bias may be in your favor, unless youre rocking a 911c4..where 50/50 is just right

the physics of 55%(corrected from articles copy below from another post on this forum) front weight in most FI installations may prove ideal under acceleration with the right setup elsewhere.

how you set up your car vs mine can have an impact on traction, for sure. there is more to it than the usual alignment advice.


2013 Scion FR-S -- 2.0l H4 (200 hp @ 7,000 rpm and 151 ft/lbs of torque @ 6,600 rpm), RWD, 6 speed manual (3.626, 2.188, 1.541, 1.213, 1.000, 0.767), 4.100 Final Drive, 6.2s 0-60, 14.8 quarter mile @ 93.6 mph, Curb Weight: 2,737 lbs, Engine Speed @ 60 mph: 2,650 rpm, Highway Fuel Mileage: 30 mpg, Weight Distribution: 55/45.

2013 Ford Focus ST II -- 2.0l Turbocharged I4 (247 hp @ 5,500 rpm and 270 ft/lbs of torque @ 1,750-4,500 rpm), FWD, 6 speed manual (3.231, 1.952, 1.321, 1.029, 1.129, 0.943), 4.063 Final Drive for 1st thru 4th and 2.95 Final Drive for 5th and 6th, 6.3s 0-60, 15.1 quarter mile @ 92.5 mph, Curb Weight: 3,223 lbs, Engine Speed @ 70 mph: 2,650 rpm, Highway Fuel Mileage: 32 mpg, Weight Distribution: 60/40.
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21337

[Turbowned]

Do you plan to track your car?

Yes, but I am not going to build it as a track car. It will see mostly street duty. I made the mistake of putting too many race parts on my MR2, and it's hardly a street car anymore.

[robispec]

Originally Posted by gmookher

The ideal weight distribution should theoretically be 50/50 but then again many super cars and Formula 1 cars do not have the ideal weight distribution.

You probably know that raising the spring rate in the back of the car puts the CG more forward dynamically speaking. I'm talking on and off throttle non braked dive and squat. Raising the front spring rate of the car pushes the CG more rearward. Millimeters DO matter when a you set balance, ride height,select roll coupling rates, and tires if what youre trying to do is fix a problem like rear traction. At that point youre not buying all the same brand etc. You may need something other than the fixed spring rates offered by some coilover outfits to solve traction defecits.

If you look at the physics of it you can easily see a few basic things why many sports cars cars have some front bias:

1) Under acceleration the weight is transferred(aka squat) to the rear end of the vehicle so in terms of that the 55/45 split becomes closer towards a 50/50 weight distribution - and may well achieve that,which is why the vehicle seems unsettled when you let off the throttle abruptly in high speed corners in its stock format. They want you to 'like' throttle out of a corner and this achieves this. However, this can be somewhat adjusted with spring rates and damping forces.Ideally for a race car, the rear end will loose grip before the front end does (the front has more weight on it therefore it has more traction), and you really dont WANT understeer. Not in racecar.

2) In a FWD car, it is ideal to have more weight on the front end because it will prevent/counter the inherent understeer, the rear end will loose grip before the front end does (the front has more weight on it therefore it has more traction) and this can, again, be somewhat adjusted with spring rates and damping forces.

I like a slight Oversteering car because you can solve it by controlling the throttle in corners. Understeering cars makes you slower, forces you to brake early and to enter corners at a slower speed than neutral / slighty oversteering cars. Sometimes-regardless of magazine speak, unless youre a PRO driver, which of course we all are, a little front bias may be in your favor, unless youre rocking a 911c4..where 50/50 is just right

the physics of 55%(corrected from articles copy below from another post on this forum) front weight in most FI installations may prove ideal under acceleration with the right setup elsewhere.

how you set up your car vs mine can have an impact on traction, for sure. there is more to it than the usual alignment advice.

50/50 is a myth...lol
We had the chance to work on the Mythical beast. Car designed "front mid engine" with 50/50 weight bias. 700+ hp 600+ tq from 3500 on...
improved the car over 8 seconds per lap and made it MUCH easier to drive by moving everything to the rear as much as possible and finally getting to 42 front 58 rear
THIS IS MY OPINION
THe prob with 50/50 is you never quite have enough at either end in dynamic situations...
Back to reality,
This car's cg (and especialy the front cg) is soooooo low vs other cars that weight transfer will be a problem. (similar to braking in a Porsche).
it is harder to lift the front end enough to effectivly transfer the weight before you run out of rear traction and light 'em up..(loosing all the weight you had transfered so far...;-) ).
As always ymmv.

oh I got the 58% # because as we have "lost" weight on out car (225 lbs) we have gon to 56% front weight as it is easier to loose weight off the back of the car...

Robi

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by gmookher

2) In a FWD car, it is ideal to have more weight on the front end because it will prevent/counter the inherent understeer, the rear end will loose grip before the front end does (the front has more weight on it therefore it has more traction) and this can, again, be somewhat adjusted with spring rates and damping forces.

Ask a FWD racer if they want more weight on the front of their car. The heavy front weight on a FWD car is simply due to packaging and is not ideal. Also ask a 911racer if their car understeers. Your analysis of the effects of weight distribution and weight transfer is not quite correct.

- andrew

[robispec]

agreed almost all factory weight biases are due to packaging (the driver/passengers being primary) with the other bits fit in awound them...
There is room in this car to have had the motor moved 6" rearward but a "subi mount" turbo would have then been out of the question...

[ATL BRZ]

I've tracked mine three times since taking delivery in August. I hope to do a couple autocross and track days per year.

[johhnc479]

Originally Posted by gmookher

The stock vehicle has much to 'unlock' as a DD, even a STG1 tune and exhaust from the same vendor went a long way, as both complimented eachother. Its a joy to track even with just a tune, catback and tires

I'll definately do tires. I've been doing HPDE's in my 944, primarily Porsche club events, for a long time. Still have not modded that car beyond beyond safety items so it's safe to say I'm slow to mod stuff. When I started the 944 was slow, but at least somewhat fit in. Now it's all GT3's or race cars out there, so I'll need the tires to keep a reasonable pace in the advanced groups. Would be interesting to track on the OEM's though. Haven't heard anyone saying they've chunked them, which I've struggled with on other cars with street tires.

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by robispec

50/50 is a myth...lol

I don't think it's a myth in what it applies to and I think the myth is that it applies to all platforms. You won't make a FWD car fast by making it 50/50. It's common knowledge in the FWD racing and autox community that 50/50 weight bias as being ideal simply doesn't apply.

[robispec]

here is the myth part...50/50 works up to a certain HP/weight then the more weight you can get and KEEP on the rear tires on a rwd platform the faster the car can accellerate as you already have the weight transfered and more forward accell. only equals more rear grip and better forward bite.
Turbocharged fwd platforms want MORE front weight I have run them as high as 72% as the front forward grip is a direct relation to the weight on the front tires.
There are many ways to "skin the cat" on all platforms. What we try for at Robispec is a stable constistant platform that does the same thing everytime the driver asks it to do it. We do this because some like 'em loose and some like 'em tight...but everybody wants them doing it the same way each time the same corner comes up so they know what they can get away with.