Official Formula 1 thread

[cfusionpm]

Given his history at the upcoming tracks...... it's plausible that without incidents or failures, he could actually take P1 for all remaining races.
Japan (1st, 1st, 3rd, 1st)
India (1st, 1st)
Abu Dhabi (1st, 1st, retired from pole start, last to 3rd)
USA (started on pole finished close 2nd)
Brazil (4th, 1st, 2nd to RBR teammate, crash and drove easy after securing WDC).
Other than Brazil, which he still might win... he looks well-poised to sweep the remaining races....

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

I think fans forget that the engineering/team motivation is not the drivers championship, it's to build two competitive cars.

They have 2 competitive cars. And half the time one of their competitive cars doesn't finish a race.

Nothing you said really refutes the point that Webber's car is the test mule for new parts or systems while Vettel's car is the beneficiary of what works. This strategy works perfectly with the plan of scoring as many points as possible. There is NO in-season testing, but if you can find a way to do testing in the real world racing conditions you can perpetuate your advantage. The "Test with Webber, Win with Vettel" strategy is extremely efficient at accomplishing this goal. 4 WDCs and 4 Constructors championships is evidence of this. No big whoop if Webber "accidentally" wins one, that's quite literally a happy accident but isn't actually part of the equation.

402 points.. That's what RBR has scored as a team. Vettel has 272 of those 402 all by himself.

Ferrari, in 2nd place, has a total of 284 points between both drivers. As a team, Ferrari has 12 more points than Vettel himself. Vettel could possibly win the Constructors Title by himself. Clearly, RBR's strategy works.

Also consider KERS.
No other team struggles with KERS quite like RBR and as often. Why? Well, the best guess right now is that their KERS setup is linked to limiting traction and this is over taxing the KERS system. Vettel even taunted his competition saying they will never figure out how they are doing it. Baloney! Now that the teams know what's happening (legal TC) I bet most of them will implement something just like it in 2014.

I predict now that Traction Control will be a topic of debate in 2014.

[rice_classic]

If I had tickets to the USGP, I would sell them and spend my money on the event next year or at an event that's earlier on the calendar.

Once the championship is locked up, I really struggle to care about the race.

[cfusionpm]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

If I had tickets to the USGP, I would sell them and spend my money on the event next year or at an event that's earlier on the calendar.

Once the championship is locked up, I really struggle to care about the race.

My girlfriend has family in NY/NJ area, so I'm crossing my fingers the provisional NJ race actually happens next year. Perfect excuse for a "family trip." Wish I could have heard the screaming V8s, but V6TT should still be pretty cool.

[cfusionpm]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

They have 2 competitive cars. And half the time one of their competitive cars doesn't finish a race.

Nothing you said really refutes the point that Webber's car is the test mule for new parts or systems while Vettel's car is the beneficiary of what works. This strategy works perfectly with the plan of scoring as many points as possible. There is NO in-season testing, but if you can find a way to do testing in the real world racing conditions you can perpetuate your advantage. The "Test with Webber, Win with Vettel" strategy is extremely efficient at accomplishing this goal. 4 WDCs and 4 Constructors championships is evidence of this. No big whoop if Webber "accidentally" wins one, that's quite literally a happy accident but isn't actually part of the equation.

402 points.. That's what RBR has scored as a team. Vettel has 272 of those 402 all by himself.

Ferrari, in 2nd place, has a total of 284 points between both drivers. As a team, Ferrari has 12 more points than Vettel himself. Vettel could possibly win the Constructors Title by himself. Clearly, RBR's strategy works.

Also consider KERS.
No other team struggles with KERS quite like RBR and as often. Why? Well, the best guess right now is that their KERS setup is linked to limiting traction and this is over taxing the KERS system. Vettel even taunted his competition saying they will never figure out how they are doing it. Baloney! Now that the teams know what's happening (legal TC) I bet most of them will implement something just like it in 2014.

I predict now that Traction Control will be a topic of debate in 2014.

An excellent thread on this topic: http://www.f1technical.net/forum/vie...p?p=455832&f=4

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

They have 2 competitive cars. And half the time one of their competitive cars doesn't finish a race.

No other team struggles with KERS quite like RBR and as often. Why? Well, the best guess right now is that their KERS setup is linked to limiting traction and this is over taxing the KERS system. Vettel even taunted his competition saying they will never figure out how they are doing it. Baloney! Now that the teams know what's happening (legal TC) I bet most of them will implement something just like it in 2014.

I predict now that Traction Control will be a topic of debate in 2014.

No argument that Webber is the development car, that's pretty well documented.

My argument is that if a team has one singular technology that allows a driver to open up 2+ seconds a lap if he chooses and then coast to not look suspicious it would be on both cars and the number 2 car would be capable of finishing podium despite it's poor luck. Hell just take a look at '10 and '11, they were much closer in terms of performance, it would be absurd to nerf a car just because they can. If Vettel lost a wing or had a poor start or poor pit stop he would have had the pace to drive up to the front again.

tl;dr for most of my posting today: RBR doesn't have TC, they have Vettel. Can't wait to see if he's ever up against another top driver in the same car i.e. Alonso, Hamilton, Raikkonen.

I was mostly curious if there were any developments aside from the wheel hop, the engine 'noise' is new but inconclusive.

Subject change: Massa to Lotus? Mclaren?

After doing some reading a Massa/Button/Mclaren/Honda partnership would check a lot of boxes for an interesting season.
Brazilian Driver+Mclaren+Honda
Mclaren+Brit Driver
Drivers who can usually manage a smile, have suffered through poor performance and know how to keep fighting (given proper team support) would be an enjoyable pairing, Button/Barrichello comes to mind.

[GTB/ZR-1]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

Well, the best guess right now is that their KERS setup is linked to limiting traction and this is over taxing the KERS system.

Great point... They probably 'pulse' it, possibly reading revs or something ingenious & sneaky. lol

[cfusionpm]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

No argument that Webber is the development car, that's pretty well documented.

My argument is that if a team has one singular technology that allows a driver to open up 2+ seconds a lap if he chooses and then coast to not look suspicious it would be on both cars and the number 2 car would be capable of finishing podium despite it's poor luck. Hell just take a look at '10 and '11, they were much closer in terms of performance, it would be absurd to nerf a car just because they can. If Vettel lost a wing or had a poor start or poor pit stop he would have had the pace to drive up to the front again.

tl;dr for most of my posting today: RBR doesn't have TC, they have Vettel. Can't wait to see if he's ever up against another top driver in the same car i.e. Alonso, Hamilton, Raikkonen.

The car thrives in open clean air. When you get behind another car in turbulant air, Newey's wonder aero doesn't work as well and suddenly you have to struggle like everyone else in the field with grip and tire management. When you start at the front and get a good first lap, the rest is pretty straightforward.

Vettel IS a better driver, but not 2-seconds-a-lap better. He just gets put in difficult situations far less often because he gets rocket starts and his car is setup to fly on opening laps. Mark usually blows his starts and has to fight through packs of other cars.

Also, given what I've read about KERS modulation, while totally unproven, seems VERY VERY likely, and plays directly into RBR's and Newey's out-of-the-box, questionably-legal design philosophy. Whereas the other teams probably thought "Well.. no more TC. Time to build and drive a car without it," RBR probably thought "well... How can we get the replicated effects of TC without ACTUALLY being TC?" Curious to see if it's ever looked into or investigated by FIA. Considering how much the FIA loves and adores RBR/Vettel, they will likely brush it aside just like all their other questionable modifications.

And going back to the Mark Webber guinea pig theory, this is probably when they began testing it:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxig8iM7jDU"]Traction Control ?? - YouTube[/ame]

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by cfusionpm

The car thrives in open clean air. When you get behind another car in turbulant air, Newey's wonder aero doesn't work as well and suddenly you have to struggle like everyone else in the field with grip and tire management. When you start at the front and get a good first lap, the rest is pretty straightforward.

Vettel IS a better driver, but not 2-seconds-a-lap better. He just gets put in difficult situations far less often because he gets rocket starts and his car is setup to fly on opening laps. Mark usually blows his starts and has to fight through packs of other cars.

Doesn't this entire post lead to the conclusions that the car is aero optimized and not benefiting (at least not the entire advantage) from TC? TC doesn't care if you're in traffic/turbulence or not, and based on the link you posted earlier TC theorists think that RBR have been developing this system since 2009, it will be interesting if Webber spills any beans when he's out of contract...

Edit: to your edit, it's an entirely logical conclusion (although I think it comes about when you study KERS, not necessarily when you remove TC from the sport) and will be amazing if it's revealed that RBR have been doing this for 3+ years without getting caught. Also amazing that other teams have been able to stay so close 'without it'.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by cfusionpm

And going back to the Mark Webber guinea pig theory, this is probably when they began testing it:

http://jalopnik.com/has-red-bull-fig...-con-514107361

As far as I can tell there are two pieces of evidence that RBR is using traction control (aside from Vettel's results, with Webber's being counter-evidence imo)

1. That video above
2. Their engine sounds different exiting the conrners

As much as I dislike Gawker, Jalopnik does a good job reporting rumors with clear sources and such:

http://jalopnik.com/red-bull-may-hav...olo-1442585020

Personally I don't think they have it (as evidenced by my prior posts), I'm positive they've tinkered with the system (you'd be stupid not to try, I bet every other team has as well and if they haven't they're kicking themselves right now) but I don't think it would have passed tech inspection.

[rice_classic]

The thought that Vettel can put a 32 second gap on 2nd place in 15 laps after a safety car due to his sheer talent is laughable at best. The layout of the Singapore track combined with the surface (very bumpy) meant that the advantage the KERS-TC system provides was exponentially inflated.

The best thing I've found to date is the ScarbsF1 article that talks about the super capacitors on the under tray that are used to shed heat generated by the KERS system... a lot of heat.

Read this:
http://scarbsf1.com/blog1/2012/04/17...er-capacitors/






This explains, somewhat, why RBR cars suffer in traffic.. when not in clean air their fancy system cannot shed enough heat and they either have a KERS failure, over heating or all out car fire. It also explains why their rear tires don't suffer the same level of deg as other teams because the rear tires are seeing the same levels of slip and/or heat.

Vettel is a faster driver than Webber, I would be hard pressed to make a case otherwise, but only better by a narrow margin. The bias towards Vettel's car (and this is just conjecture) is the reason why Webber is not finishing consistently in 2nd, but you will notice that Webber often qualifies in the top 3. Unfortunately he sucks at the start and without clean air the typical "Webber bad luck" kicks in, which should be renamed as "RBR-not-in-clean-air" luck. Not taking into account the multitude of botched pit stops.

[strat61caster]

@rice_classic

I was wondering how long until that link got posted, no mention of TC potential by Scarbs. You mention overheating of the system which is interesting and is a plausible explanation of why it (hypothetical KERS TC) does not work well in traffic. My first thought is they are using the KERS to aid braking and as such are able to downsize their brakes and reduce the load on them. This can reduce unsprung weight and move the mass needed for braking inboard for a better aero package, they're one of the few teams who seem to never have brake issues, but that's just talking out my ass.

The guy you linked to doesn't think it's real by the way:
[ame]https://twitter.com/ScarbsF1/status/387887597072052224[/ame]
[ame]https://twitter.com/ScarbsF1/status/387720084913160192[/ame]
[ame]https://twitter.com/ScarbsF1/status/387701200264908801[/ame]
[ame]https://twitter.com/ScarbsF1/status/387503899365888000[/ame]

You're right, 2+ seconds a lap for 15 consecutive laps is crazy, but not unheard of in F1 (especially if there's tires involved). For instance I found two races where the lead was over 2 laps:
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1995_Australian_Grand_Prix"]1995 Australian Grand Prix - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1969_Spanish_Grand_Prix"]1969 Spanish Grand Prix - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

As far as I can tell both those cars were legal. TC is definitely illegal per current regulations (at least in spirit) I don't think RBR is running it on Vettel's car. I'm sure the FIA will be very careful at next inspection (unless of course you're a conspiracy theorist).

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

@rice_classic

I was wondering how long until that link got posted, no mention of TC potential by Scarbs.

Correct. But it does explain some of the alternator and KERS problems they have, their inability to be reliable in traffic and if you take into consideration the "theoretical" KERS-TC system which would add a lot of heat it makes sense that they would have this hyper-cooling-capacitor setup. So while the KERS-TC theory hasn't been proven, using deductive reasoning one can infer that if a KERS-TC were being used it would generate an excess of heat which would need to be dealt with... and now we see that they do indeed implement a means of dealing with a vast amount of excessive KERS heat... hmmmm... interdasting!

Originally Posted by strat61caster

The guy you linked to doesn't think it's real by the way:

I am aware of this.

Originally Posted by strat61caster

You're right, 2+ seconds a lap for 15 consecutive laps is crazy, but not unheard of in F1 (especially if there's tires involved).

That doesn't make the point however. This isn't that. The argument being made is that Vettel, as a driver, was that much faster due to sheer talent than any other driver on the grid that day (Singapore). I'm arguing that is incorrect (and ridiculous). While a 2+ second/lap gaps is not unheard of in F1 it doesn't make the case, at all, that Vettel ran those times at Singapore out of "sheer talent". Vettel's car was quite literally 2+ seconds/lap faster than the competition, Vettel was simply talented enough to make the car do what it was designed to do. He did not perform any miracles of driving that day. His talent behind the wheel also doesn't account for the engine note on throttle application nor the cars ability to put down power 20meters earlier than any other car on the grid.

All evidence points to the car performing those "miracles", not the driver. Sorry.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

All evidence points to the car performing those "miracles", not the driver. Sorry.

I don't disagree with this, I doubt he would have the same gap if he was in Ferrari's car or Lotus's or a Mercedes for the last 15 laps, he has a Red Bull, a Red Bull that was deemed legal after post race inspection. Hell drop him in a Lotus and I wouldn't be surprised if Grosjean beat him over a weekend. The evidence so far boils down to A) Wheel hop video, B) Engine Noise and C) they have KERS failures (so has everyone else, I don't even consider this) and here's pics of their system.

Everything else is speculation, people have commented on how Hamilton, Alonso, Schumacher, Raikkonen, Senna and on and on about how they are capable of laying the power on early, I don't count that as anything more that "wow he's fast and I'm suspicious because I/we're not as fast".

I don't know where you got that I attribute 2 seconds a lap to Vettel's talent alone, only that Vettel is faster than Webber on talent. The only definitive evidence of cheating would be dissecting everything hooked up to the KERS system and the code used to operate it. It's certainly possible but I don't think it's true.

After your posts I'm more convinced that they're using KERS to take the load off the brake system running both systems to the limit of their capability leading to the KERS failure and trouble in traffic (have to lean more heavily on the brakes which induces some fade). This also reduces the stress at the hubs from braking so they can shave some weight there as well. Very curious, an evening with Newey and some truth serum (if it existed) would be an F1 fans dream or nightmare depending on the "truth".