Airbags ... seriously

[eight08customs]

Originally Posted by Godzilla35

I wish I knew someone with air in LA that could let me drive their car through Topanga or Malibu canyon (conservatively). I really want to feel it out before I pull the trigger. I am 60/40 split air vs. coilovers. Another downside is that I may lose the trunk space but I don't fold my seats down that often anyways.

Noel lives in LA... Hit him up im sure he would take you for a spin

https://www.facebook.com/noel.barnum?fref=ts

[xxscaxx]

Ok so I figured I’d post a little update on here about my Airlift struts/Autopilot v2 management combo I just installed on my brz.

Now I know this isn’t for everyone and that's fine, but please keep in mind that I chose air suspension because besides running airrex struts on my sti and loving it, this car is low enough as it is in the first place, and I wanted the option of being able to get over speedbumps, bad road conditions, etc without sacrificing the look I wanted with my car. That's where air shines IMHO.

Installation was a breeze – the only hard part was figuring out what I wanted to do with my management setup and fitting it into the trunk, as well as figuring out where to run the airlines. The one downside of what I did with hiding it under the false floor is there is just not a lot of room under there. Even without using the EXO mounts (the black rings around the tank holding the compressor and autopilot v2 manifold), the clearance is just minimal. I’d probably get another ¼-1/2 if I had opted to mount them directly to the board and have the top of the tank be the highest point. Right now, I need to lift the floor 3” to clear everything, which just about brings the trunk floor up to the edge of the trunk. I still haven’t made the false floor cover, but will get to that.

As far as driving impressions – I am very VERY pleased on how this drives. Right now at the settings I have in, this thing rides just as comfortable as stock. Big bumps are a tad harsher which I expected obviously, but to be honest, its so similar to the ride comfort of stock I can bet if I put someone in the car and drove them around they wouldn’t even know I am on air. I can’t really comment on cornering capabilities or feel at the moment because I have Blizzak ws70 on and they are snow and ice tires, so I don’t feel like planting myself into a tree trying to get an idea of how it grips in a corner It does feel more planted though in turns just compared to what I felt prior with the stock setup.

I wish I had weighed everything, but since I pulled the donut out of the trunk, I probably added only a few pounds.

As far as the Autopilot v2 – I came from the Accuair eLevel system which is a height based sytem that automatically adjusts driving height for you on the fly, and keeps you at your designated ride height position. Being that the V2 is a pressure based system it obviously is hard to compare, but I chose the v2 this time because of the simplicity of installation, and I also did not have to drill holes into the control arms to install the height sensors. I miss the height sensor automatic leveling only because its ease, but honestly the v2 is great. Its nice seeing PSI in each bag and how much PSI is in the compressor. If I ever went back to the elevel I would install PSI gauges, but again that is another thing that is kind of a downside to the elevel. The autopilot has it all within a very small controller, its easy to use and read as well. The only gripes I have about the autopilot is switching from manual mode to preset mode is a pain in the ass, and its not accurate all the time when you go from fully dumped out, to your ride height. I have now started going from dumped height, to a “all up” height, down to my ride height. The other day I went from fully dumped to “ride height” and it didn’t adust the back up enough, and as I was backing out of my friends driveway I heard scraping which ended up being my exhaust flange on the ground lol.

Here are two quick photos, of my tank setup, and fully aired out. Hope this post helps some people.

I really strive people to get away from all the generalities surrounding air and give it a chance before you bash it. Also note, that you can adjust these to a higher “dumped” position if you wanted, it doesn’t have to be this low. This is as low as I can go without hitting the plastic fender liners lol. If you had a higher “dumped” position as well, you would have more clearance when aired all the way up to clear things. I will get a picture of my driving height if it helps at all.

Those are copper hardlines that come off the manifold and go into the back of the trunk.





Just want to add a shoutout to @John@BagRiders for such an outstanding and pleasurable buying experience. Seriously, I have been talking with John for months now, ranging from air, cars in general, coding, etc. He never threw me a sales pitch, was always open to answer my questions, and I never once felt pressured to buy anything. It honestly felt like a friend to friend conversation the whole entire time, and as a customer I can really appreciate that. The whole BagRider crew knows what they are talking about and doing and i'll honestly never buy another air part from anyone else unless I am forced to.

[Chokeefrs86]

How much was the whole airlift setup? ^

[xxscaxx]

The price I paid is lower than most would pay, since I reused parts from my old setup, and also bought it at a time where bagriders was running a deal on their kit.

But IIRC I paid around 2700 for the autopilot setup and airlift struts. Again I didn't need a bunch of things already so that brought the cost down a little.

[eight08customs]

Looks good man!!! Glad yo like your Airrex Struts on your STI.... have you ever thought about using the AIRREX managment system? Its pressure based and it works really well.. Here is aset up that we did in the FT86 that in the spare tire well.

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...1561251&type=3

Originally Posted by xxscaxx

Ok so I figured I’d post a little update on here about my Airlift struts/Autopilot v2 management combo I just installed on my brz.

Now I know this isn’t for everyone and that's fine, but please keep in mind that I chose air suspension because besides running airrex struts on my sti and loving it, this car is low enough as it is in the first place, and I wanted the option of being able to get over speedbumps, bad road conditions, etc without sacrificing the look I wanted with my car. That's where air shines IMHO.

Installation was a breeze – the only hard part was figuring out what I wanted to do with my management setup and fitting it into the trunk, as well as figuring out where to run the airlines. The one downside of what I did with hiding it under the false floor is there is just not a lot of room under there. Even without using the EXO mounts (the black rings around the tank holding the compressor and autopilot v2 manifold), the clearance is just minimal. I’d probably get another ¼-1/2 if I had opted to mount them directly to the board and have the top of the tank be the highest point. Right now, I need to lift the floor 3” to clear everything, which just about brings the trunk floor up to the edge of the trunk. I still haven’t made the false floor cover, but will get to that.

As far as driving impressions – I am very VERY pleased on how this drives. Right now at the settings I have in, this thing rides just as comfortable as stock. Big bumps are a tad harsher which I expected obviously, but to be honest, its so similar to the ride comfort of stock I can bet if I put someone in the car and drove them around they wouldn’t even know I am on air. I can’t really comment on cornering capabilities or feel at the moment because I have Blizzak ws70 on and they are snow and ice tires, so I don’t feel like planting myself into a tree trying to get an idea of how it grips in a corner It does feel more planted though in turns just compared to what I felt prior with the stock setup.

I wish I had weighed everything, but since I pulled the donut out of the trunk, I probably added only a few pounds.

As far as the Autopilot v2 – I came from the Accuair eLevel system which is a height based sytem that automatically adjusts driving height for you on the fly, and keeps you at your designated ride height position. Being that the V2 is a pressure based system it obviously is hard to compare, but I chose the v2 this time because of the simplicity of installation, and I also did not have to drill holes into the control arms to install the height sensors. I miss the height sensor automatic leveling only because its ease, but honestly the v2 is great. Its nice seeing PSI in each bag and how much PSI is in the compressor. If I ever went back to the elevel I would install PSI gauges, but again that is another thing that is kind of a downside to the elevel. The autopilot has it all within a very small controller, its easy to use and read as well. The only gripes I have about the autopilot is switching from manual mode to preset mode is a pain in the ass, and its not accurate all the time when you go from fully dumped out, to your ride height. I have now started going from dumped height, to a “all up” height, down to my ride height. The other day I went from fully dumped to “ride height” and it didn’t adust the back up enough, and as I was backing out of my friends driveway I heard scraping which ended up being my exhaust flange on the ground lol.

Here are two quick photos, of my tank setup, and fully aired out. Hope this post helps some people.

I really strive people to get away from all the generalities surrounding air and give it a chance before you bash it. Also note, that you can adjust these to a higher “dumped” position if you wanted, it doesn’t have to be this low. This is as low as I can go without hitting the plastic fender liners lol. If you had a higher “dumped” position as well, you would have more clearance when aired all the way up to clear things. I will get a picture of my driving height if it helps at all.

Those are copper hardlines that come off the manifold and go into the back of the trunk.





Just want to add a shoutout to @John@BagRiders for such an outstanding and pleasurable buying experience. Seriously, I have been talking with John for months now, ranging from air, cars in general, coding, etc. He never threw me a sales pitch, was always open to answer my questions, and I never once felt pressured to buy anything. It honestly felt like a friend to friend conversation the whole entire time, and as a customer I can really appreciate that. The whole BagRider crew knows what they are talking about and doing and i'll honestly never buy another air part from anyone else unless I am forced to.

[eight08customs]

Is the airlift struts a coil over type or and OEM type system.. I have seen cars with Airlift but never saw there struts?

[xxscaxx]

Originally Posted by eight08customs

Looks good man!!! Glad yo like your Airrex Struts on your STI.... have you ever thought about using the AIRREX managment system? Its pressure based and it works really well.. Here is aset up that we did in the FT86 that in the spare tire well.

I did think about it, but it all being contained within the box and the price point kind of steered me away towards it. I had actually talked to you a while back about a setup.

Did you buy a second stock floor and put it on top of that wood, or did you build a wood false floor on top of that?

I am basically going to do what you just did, but make a false floor out of some wood, with a hinged door on it so i can get to my management without ripping everything out. Looks like you have more clearance on your setup, with mine, the compressor on the EXO mount sits higher than the tank so I lost an 1/2-1" of clearance. Only thing that sucks but whatever lol.

airlift struts are a coilover type just like the airrex are.

[kvl]

Originally Posted by xxscaxx

I did think about it, but it all being contained within the box and the price point kind of steered me away towards it. I had actually talked to you a while back about a setup.

Did you buy a second stock floor and put it on top of that wood, or did you build a wood false floor on top of that?

I am basically going to do what you just did, but make a false floor out of some wood, with a hinged door on it so i can get to my management without ripping everything out. Looks like you have more clearance on your setup, with mine, the compressor on the EXO mount sits higher than the tank so I lost an 1/2-1" of clearance. Only thing that sucks but whatever lol.

airlift struts are a coilover type just like the airrex are.

Agree... The price is a bit too much for airrex, hence I'm leading towards airlift at this stage

[EarlQHan]

I drove a BRZ on bags for the first time today and it was a very strange experience. I will try to give my most honest, informed, and unbiased opinion of bags as a suspension option; not talking about a specific brand/price. I don't know which brand the bag system I drove on is so please don't ask me.

I don't know much about how to build and setup a bag system because I had never really thought about it as an option. What I noticed is the amount of spring rate adjustment you can get is insane. The system I drove on changes ride height according to pressure, I don't know if this is true for all systems. So the lower the car is, the softer it rides, but then if you're too low, there's the possibility of scraping stuff. Being scared to scrape stuff since it's not my car, I drove it at a higher pressure for a higher ride height. BIG MISTAKE. Even on what seemed like a perfectly smooth road, the bumps were magnified. It almost seemed like the suspension was creating bumps out of thin air. It was so bad I felt like I was going to throw up (meaning the car was probably oscillating around 4 Hz). On visible bumps, the rear wheels would hop and the traction light would come on.

I pulled over and dropped the pressure about 20 psi in each corner, and the car felt better. It was still firm and the preset had a high rear bias so the car pitched forward over bumps as expected with a biased spring rate. I dropped the rear pressure and the car felt much better. It felt a lot like your typical Japanese coilover (take that how you will). The final pressures were 35 psi front, 45 psi rear, but I don't know if that's a universal spring rate among different brands.

I will admit there's a certain cool factor to having bags and being able to dump it on the ground when parked, then driving away at a normal-ish ride height. However, I'm an impatient guy and like to just get in and drive. I don't like having to wait for the compressor to fill up the bags. It's just a nuisance to me. It's also overly complex and if a bag fails or blows out, it's a catastrophic failure, leaving the car immobile. If a coilover has a spring failure, you've probably hit something.

The weight aspect probably isn't as bad as most people make it out to be. The tank is typically placed right up behind the rear seat, so the weight is in between the wheelbase. People adding turbochargers/superchargers are adding weight right on the nose which will upset the balance more than adding bags. Most aftermarket wheel/tire combos are adding rotational weight and inertia. Hell, people who get interior mods like those "86" plaques are adding useless weight.

Now the interesting part about bags is the vehicle dynamic possibilities. You can change your spring rates and ride height on the fly. This is as close to active suspension as you can get on a car at this price range. The difference is, the spring rate changes, not the damper curve. Also, air being a compressible fluid, the spring rate is progressive. In a very basic sense, it means over small bumps the car can remain softly sprung, but under roll in hard cornering, the car stiffens up. This means you can get rid of anti-roll bars if tuned properly (a la McLaren MP4-12C, except they use hydraulics in a Z-bar fashion but I digress). That also means you can offset some of the weight from the bags, although the CG will be raised. It is my understanding that current air bag systems are adapted to conventional off-the-shelf dampers. However, if you could build a damper curve around a certain bag pressure or use dual-bag setups to run the spring in parallel, I don't see why it couldn't simultaneously be more comfortable and handle better than any coilover system on the market. However, to engineer something like that properly, you'd need a damn good controls engineer who excels in state-space matrices to figure out the complexities of the spring-mass-damper system.

Hope that helps. If any engineers out there think I've completely missed the mark on this, please chime in, I'm definitely intrigued by the bag system and its intricacies and I would love to learn more.

EDIT: Just read in this thread they have auto leveling systems. If it can pressurize/depressurize the bags fast enough the keep it very level this means your aero platform is now stable. If you can get a bag/damper system that is quick enough (we're talking in the magnitude of milliseconds) I highly doubt any conventional coilover would be able to keep up with its performance. Unfortunately, I don't think that kind of bag system is available yet. On top of which you'd need a MR damper with ECU. AFAIK, Beijing West and Ferrari have patents on that technology.

[Grishbok]

i believe what the conversation is hinting at is what are the actual shock dyno on the bags, displaying the set ups rebound rate, absorption rate etc at varius intensitys. Only that will really be able to provide you with a good side by side comparison. Any good coilover company has these dynos on hand for a side by side comparison. Thats how you can determine how well they will perform at the track. Unless your just racing amateur or just for fun.

[xxscaxx]

Originally Posted by EarlQHan

I drove a BRZ on bags for the first time today and it was a very strange experience. I will try to give my most honest, informed, and unbiased opinion of bags as a suspension option; not talking about a specific brand/price. I don't know which brand the bag system I drove on is so please don't ask me.

I don't know much about how to build and setup a bag system because I had never really thought about it as an option. What I noticed is the amount of spring rate adjustment you can get is insane. The system I drove on changes ride height according to pressure, I don't know if this is true for all systems. So the lower the car is, the softer it rides, but then if you're too low, there's the possibility of scraping stuff. Being scared to scrape stuff since it's not my car, I drove it at a higher pressure for a higher ride height. BIG MISTAKE. Even on what seemed like a perfectly smooth road, the bumps were magnified. It almost seemed like the suspension was creating bumps out of thin air. It was so bad I felt like I was going to throw up (meaning the car was probably oscillating around 4 Hz). On visible bumps, the rear wheels would hop and the traction light would come on.

I pulled over and dropped the pressure about 20 psi in each corner, and the car felt better. It was still firm and the preset had a high rear bias so the car pitched forward over bumps as expected with a biased spring rate. I dropped the rear pressure and the car felt much better. It felt a lot like your typical Japanese coilover (take that how you will). The final pressures were 35 psi front, 45 psi rear, but I don't know if that's a universal spring rate among different brands.

I will admit there's a certain cool factor to having bags and being able to dump it on the ground when parked, then driving away at a normal-ish ride height. However, I'm an impatient guy and like to just get in and drive. I don't like having to wait for the compressor to fill up the bags. It's just a nuisance to me. It's also overly complex and if a bag fails or blows out, it's a catastrophic failure, leaving the car immobile. If a coilover has a spring failure, you've probably hit something.

The weight aspect probably isn't as bad as most people make it out to be. The tank is typically placed right up behind the rear seat, so the weight is in between the wheelbase. People adding turbochargers/superchargers are adding weight right on the nose which will upset the balance more than adding bags. Most aftermarket wheel/tire combos are adding rotational weight and inertia. Hell, people who get interior mods like those "86" plaques are adding useless weight.

Now the interesting part about bags is the vehicle dynamic possibilities. You can change your spring rates and ride height on the fly. This is as close to active suspension as you can get on a car at this price range. The difference is, the spring rate changes, not the damper curve. Also, air being a compressible fluid, the spring rate is progressive. In a very basic sense, it means over small bumps the car can remain softly sprung, but under roll in hard cornering, the car stiffens up. This means you can get rid of anti-roll bars if tuned properly (a la McLaren MP4-12C, except they use hydraulics in a Z-bar fashion but I digress). That also means you can offset some of the weight from the bags, although the CG will be raised. It is my understanding that current air bag systems are adapted to conventional off-the-shelf dampers. However, if you could build a damper curve around a certain bag pressure or use dual-bag setups to run the spring in parallel, I don't see why it couldn't simultaneously be more comfortable and handle better than any coilover system on the market. However, to engineer something like that properly, you'd need a damn good controls engineer who excels in state-space matrices to figure out the complexities of the spring-mass-damper system.

Hope that helps. If any engineers out there think I've completely missed the mark on this, please chime in, I'm definitely intrigued by the bag system and its intricacies and I would love to learn more.

EDIT: Just read in this thread they have auto leveling systems. If it can pressurize/depressurize the bags fast enough the keep it very level this means your aero platform is now stable. If you can get a bag/damper system that is quick enough (we're talking in the magnitude of milliseconds) I highly doubt any conventional coilover would be able to keep up with its performance. Unfortunately, I don't think that kind of bag system is available yet. On top of which you'd need a MR damper with ECU. AFAIK, Beijing West and Ferrari have patents on that technology.

I appreciate your feedback, my question is did your friend (assuming your friend) have a preset ride height that he was aligned on? You were riding on pressures that were out of the alignment spec. Although this is good for testing and seeing how more pressure/less pressure effects the ride, you should have really been driving on a predetermined, aligned setting. Also, did you mess with the dampening on the struts? There should have been adjustable dampening on them.

Also, the brand of bag will also play a part in how it rides. Example, AirRex has double bellow bags in the front and rear, my AirLift system has double bellow front/sleeved rears.

Bag fill time - Also depends on your setup. I have a 444c compressor to a 3 gallon tank, and if i'm aired out, it literally takes 6 seconds or so to fill to my ride height, and off I go. If you are pulling away faster than that, well I don't know what to tell you.

There is no universal spring rate - you go by feel with a pressure based system. The eLevel (which I had previously) predetermines ride height for you. It seems if you were to do a bag setup this would be the most convenient thing for you. I must admit, theres just a lot less thinking involved with a height based system. But I am happy I switched to pressure based because you really understand how to fine tune the ride and see whats going on.

overly complex? its basically coilovers, with air line and a tank/compressor, lol. A bag will not blow out, unless you are a complete moron or there is some kind of defect. The only thing you have to check for is leaks (which is easy, you check your gauges/controller and see if pressure drops after parked for a while). That kind of blank statement is just that - my buddy had a spring rust out and break on him. When do you see that everyday? It would be stupid for me to say that springs will fail and explode just because of one incident. Most times if there is a bag failure, it is because something is rubbing the bag (whether it be the tire/wheel, or against the body of the car - yes some kits are universal and need a little "work" to fit)

As far as the elevel and automatic adjustments, it makes them every 45 seconds to make sure you are consistent with that predetermined ride height it has chosen for you.. They are very small increments and is done pretty much instantly since its not like you are filling each corner with a lot of air.

Not trying to attack anything you said, just trying to add my two cents. i'm eager to hear your reply regarding the ride height settings.

[EarlQHan]

Originally Posted by xxscaxx

I appreciate your feedback, my question is did your friend (assuming your friend) have a preset ride height that he was aligned on? You were riding on pressures that were out of the alignment spec. Although this is good for testing and seeing how more pressure/less pressure effects the ride, you should have really been driving on a predetermined, aligned setting. Also, did you mess with the dampening on the struts? There should have been adjustable dampening on them.

Also, the brand of bag will also play a part in how it rides. Example, AirRex has double bellow bags in the front and rear, my AirLift system has double bellow front/sleeved rears.

Bag fill time - Also depends on your setup. I have a 444c compressor to a 3 gallon tank, and if i'm aired out, it literally takes 6 seconds or so to fill to my ride height, and off I go. If you are pulling away faster than that, well I don't know what to tell you.

There is no universal spring rate - you go by feel with a pressure based system. The eLevel (which I had previously) predetermines ride height for you. It seems if you were to do a bag setup this would be the most convenient thing for you. I must admit, theres just a lot less thinking involved with a height based system. But I am happy I switched to pressure based because you really understand how to fine tune the ride and see whats going on.

overly complex? its basically coilovers, with air line and a tank/compressor, lol. A bag will not blow out, unless you are a complete moron or there is some kind of defect. The only thing you have to check for is leaks (which is easy, you check your gauges/controller and see if pressure drops after parked for a while). That kind of blank statement is just that - my buddy had a spring rust out and break on him. When do you see that everyday? It would be stupid for me to say that springs will fail and explode just because of one incident. Most times if there is a bag failure, it is because something is rubbing the bag (whether it be the tire/wheel, or against the body of the car - yes some kits are universal and need a little "work" to fit)

As far as the elevel and automatic adjustments, it makes them every 45 seconds to make sure you are consistent with that predetermined ride height it has chosen for you.. They are very small increments and is done pretty much instantly since its not like you are filling each corner with a lot of air.

Not trying to attack anything you said, just trying to add my two cents. i'm eager to hear your reply regarding the ride height settings.

Thanks for the insight on setting up a bag system. I'm not attacking bags, it's just from what I've seen, but it's only the tip of the iceberg. You're right, springs can rust and break, but that's only one failure mode. A bag can blow out or a line can leak. That's two. With a traditional coilover setup, there's only a damper and spring. With bags there's the damper, the spring, the lines, the compressor, and the controller. It's more complex. I'm not saying it's rocket science, but over a coilover, there's more thought needed to setting it up. I've seen people who don't know how to setup the ride height with double height adjustable coilover, imagine if you gave them bags. Also, as bags compress, they bellow out, so you have to consider the expanded size of the bag when it's compressed. I've saw a bag that got rubbed through because that was neglected. The clearance was fine when the car was static, but it slowly rubbed through because it would contact the wheel over bumps.

To be honest, I don't know anything about the setup. My friend literally showed me how to adjust the pressure then tossed me the keys. I didn't mess with any of the damper settings, to be honest I didn't know there was damper adjustment. Also it's not my car so I don't want to mess around with it.

As for the e-level and 45 second increments for adjustment, that is SLOW. The OEM hydraulic and MR dampers are capable of adjusting the damper settings in milliseconds. Also for filling up the compressor, 6 seconds is still 6 seconds more than I want to spend, but that's me.

It seems like there's a lot more thought involved with setting up a proper air system, but if it's properly developed, and since I don't know enough, I can't make a proper judgement. However, I can see its benefits massively outweighing its drawbacks. Just like with any other technology, as the market size increases, the technology improves, the quality improves, the price goes down. I'm not 100% convinced yet, but there is a LOT of potential. You can do a lot more with it than a traditional coilover system, including handling/performance. As for naysayers who brush it off, you can't blame them. People are scared of the new and foreign, it's our nature but I'm sure more people will consider air as the systems become more refined.

[xxscaxx]

you are reading me wrong. The eLevel CHECKS to make sure the height is at its predetermined level every 45 seconds. It takes milliseconds for it to adjust. Maybe a second at the most.

Good points, all very valid. Yes there are more issues that could arise, but a properly installed system will be just as reliable is my point. Nevertheless you are right - more areas of concern than a tradtional coil. If that bag you saw that got rubbed through was tested properly they would have caught that. When I set mine up, I jacked each corner to make sure there was clearance for the lines and the bags. You would notice that immediately if it was rubbing, or even coming close to the frame. Again this is kind of null since these "kits" are specifically made for the application and that is something thats checked by the manufacture before its sold.

Do you have your foot to the gas as soon as the car is turned on? Also, my managagement system along with the elevel have "rise on start" which will go automatically to your ride height as soon as its powered on. So that 6 seconds just turned into 2-3 lol.

Also, I wasn't saying you were attacking bags, and its the reason why I also said i'm not attacking your comment because I know it could easily be seen that way. Just engaging in conversation

Shame on your friend for not showing you the ropes

The ONE thing I don't like so far about these pressure based systems is that going from aired out to ride height is not always 100% accurate, where as the height based system (elevel) always was, and if it wasn't it would get adjusted out anyway automatically. Thats my only gripe. I went from aired out to ride height, started backing up and heard my exhaust scraping when I hit a few bumps in my friends driveway and was like wtf? So now I go from aired out, up to a higher setting than my ride height, down to my ride height. Yes its kind of stupid lol.

[EarlQHan]

I did misunderstand the adjustment. Your systems seems more intelligent but I also did a similar start procedure. My friend told me to fully pressurize the bag, to stretch them out since it makes adjustment more precise. I don't know if that's true or not, but that's what he told me and that's what I did. That's why I'm saying it just takes a lot longer to get going. Thanks for clarifying though, I'm always open to learn more.

And yes, straight to the gas. If you're not first, you're last!