Subaru Version of Toyota FT-86 Confirmed...But Not Yet For U.S.

[IBCoupe]

Originally Posted by hoffo

The current gen NC Mazda MX-5 is only 2400-2500 lbs depending upon trim level. Convertibles are also heavier than coupes due to needing more chassis bracing without a fixed roof. So this car can still come in under 2700 lbs no problem, but only if they focus on making it as light as possible which is what Mazda engineers had to do with the NC redesign to keep weight down.

I'm with Hoffo on that one. I've always maintained that hardtops were superior sports cars to convertibles for that reason. Not only the extra bracing required, but a convertible that has a power-assisted roof is going to gain an even larger amount of weight from the roof mechanism itself. A hardtop convertible is probably the absolute worst, in this regard.

I also agree that it's going to take an extreme focus on the part of Toyota and Subaru to keep the weight down. The Miata's a two-seater, after all, and this means that its safety requirements go into protecting two people, not four. I think, at our most optimistic, we can imagine the FT-86 weighing as little as the MX-5, but no less.

[NESW20]

if it's lighter than my MR2, that's enough for me.

-Mike

[Blokatos]

Originally Posted by White Comet

Stop comparing apples to oranges (i.e. a brand new car with an older car; different layout; etc). It's not going to work.

I am not comparing. How can you compare something that exists with something you know almost nothing about???

I am trying to reach a reasonable assumption through using a point of reference.

Originally Posted by White Comet

The FT is going to be a sports car. And in this day and age, you don't get to be a successful car company if you sell a sports car that won't protect the owner from itself. Safety equipment and parts bin sharing (to keep costs down) will keep this car from weighing in anywhere close to what everyone here thinks it will be.

Yes it is going to be a sports car. As Toyota says, a lightweight one. It's up to us, potential customers to judge if they succeeded or not. Hoffo is right using MX-5's weight as an example. Being a coupe, FT-86 has more potential for a lightweight chassis. Boxer engine helps too as it is a compact and light engine structure.

The critical factor is the excess luxury which in FT-86's case is not needed. If they try to keep it simple, it will be lightweight.

[Matador]

Originally Posted by White Comet

How many is "many?"

I'm not disputing some people are doing this, but I'm willing to bet it's an infinitely small number of people in proportion to those who buy the car as a basic means of transportation. The FT is being aimed at the enthusiast. Very different scenario. Especially considering it will be priced within range of those just getting their driving licenses whose parents have more money than brains.

It might be aimed at enthusiasts, but enthusiasts are not a large enough market to sustain a car. A lot of people WILL buy it as basic transportation, a lot of people will buy it because they want a good looking coupe to cruise around in and a lot of people will buy it because it is (will be?) economical and efficient. So, it is pretty much the same scenario, depends on what angle you look at it form.

Originally Posted by IBCoupe

I've seen hundreds of Yarises on the road, and I've yet to see a turbo'd one. While it's entirely possible that there are people out there who will turbo a Yaris (I'm sure there are people who will turbo a bar stool, if they can), I'm not sure this is the demographic Toyota had in mind when they designed, engineered, and marketed the Yaris.

Toyota probably didn't have the tuner market in mind when they brought over the Yaris, but there are lots of tuned Yaris/Vitz all over the world, not just in the USA. Not to mention in their home market there is an insane following, it even has it's own one make racing series AND TRD makes a turbo kit/ dealer ordered turbo version of the RS model, so i'm thinking they probably were not ignorant to the fact that tuning the car was a distinct possibility.

Originally Posted by Blokatos

I don't want to buy a Type R. I would if I did. I prefer RWD on a sports car. Just wanted to show that 200 hp doesn't mean heavy weight...

That does not weigh less than than 2700lbs.

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

That does not weigh less than than 2700lbs.

Correction, 2,733 lbs (1,240 kg) you were 33 lbs off.

[White Comet]

Originally Posted by Blokatos

I am trying to reach a reasonable assumption through using a point of reference.

Fair enough, but my position is that the speed with which safety regs move these days (therefore affecting standard equipment which affects weight) is so fast that you cannot use a car that came out in 2002 as a reference point for a car that will come out 9 years later. Furthermore, one if a sporty, FWD hatch and another is a RWD sports car. Again, apples to oranges.

Originally Posted by Blokatos

Yes it is going to be a sports car. As Toyota says, a lightweight one. It's up to us, potential customers to judge if they succeeded or not. Hoffo is right using MX-5's weight as an example. Being a coupe, FT-86 has more potential for a lightweight chassis. Boxer engine helps too as it is a compact and light engine structure.

The critical factor is the excess luxury which in FT-86's case is not needed. If they try to keep it simple, it will be lightweight.

It will be relatively lightweight, for 2011. It will not be lightweight compared for 1990, or even 2000. The Japanese Toyota officials have already dropped a proposed weight of what, 1300 kg (2820 lbs)? That is a rough estimate at best, so there is still plenty of opportunity to knock off some weight here and there, but less than 2600 lbs is not happening. Period.

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

It might be aimed at enthusiasts, but enthusiasts are not a large enough market to sustain a car. A lot of people WILL buy it as basic transportation, a lot of people will buy it because they want a good looking coupe to cruise around in and a lot of people will buy it because it is (will be?) economical and efficient. So, it is pretty much the same scenario, depends on what angle you look at it form.

You make a good point, but it doesn't change the overall picture. Overwhelmingly, people buy a Yaris for transportation and nothing else. It has an almost non-existant enthusiast population (relative to total sales). The FT-86 will have a much greater population of enthusiasts relative to total owners, and that will be reflected very quickly in the aftermarket support it garners almost right away after its release.

[Matador]

Originally Posted by White Comet

You make a good point, but it doesn't change the overall picture. Overwhelmingly, people buy a Yaris for transportation and nothing else. It has an almost non-existant enthusiast population (relative to total sales). The FT-86 will have a much greater population of enthusiasts relative to total owners, and that will be reflected very quickly in the aftermarket support it garners almost right away after its release.

...in your corner of the globe.

[White Comet]

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

...in your corner of the globe.

Care to elaborate? I'd love to know just where the Yaris will somehow be a bigger hit with enthusiasts (again, relative to its total number of owners) than the FT.

[YourFearlessLeader]

Not to argue against your point at all, White Comet, but here in NY and NYC there are quite a few Yaris' clubs which have some nice rides. However, youre right when you say relative to total sales. The FT86 will be more of a sports car than a Yaris could ever dream to be.

You will always have more Nissan Z enthusiasts than you will Nissan Versa entusiants (analogy).

[White Comet]

Originally Posted by YourFearlessLeader

Not to argue against your point at all, White Comet, but here in NY and NYC there are quite a few Yaris' clubs which have some nice rides. However, youre right when you say relative to total sales. The FT86 will be more of a sports car than a Yaris could ever dream to be.

You will always have more Nissan Z enthusiasts than you will Nissan Versa entusiants (analogy).

Hey, I have zero problem with people wanting to argue. That's the beauty of forums. If there are more Yaris enthusiasts than I suggested, call me wrong and I say "great!" for Toyota for creating a basic commuter car that somehow caught on with tuners.

But it doesn't change my statement about the FT going to have way, way more aftermarket and enthusiasts owning it.

[Blokatos]

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

That does not weigh less than than 2700lbs.

In Euro spec weighed 1200 kgs or 2650 lbs...

[Matador]

Originally Posted by Blokatos

In Euro spec weighed 1200 kgs or 2650 lbs...

Granted, but it also had just exactly 200hp.

If the FT weighs about the same and has similar hp, what is the problem?

Originally Posted by White Comet

Care to elaborate? I'd love to know just where the Yaris will somehow be a bigger hit with enthusiasts (again, relative to its total number of owners) than the FT.

Never said it will be a bigger hit, I'm just saying it is what it is. it could never win a numbers game because of the amount of Yarii sold and you know that. The fact remains that Lots of people everywhere (especially in the pacific rim) tune the yaris/vitz and there is a lot of aftermarket support for it. Don't loose focus of the initial premise.

[Blokatos]

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

Granted, but it also had just exactly 200hp.
If the FT weighs about the same and has similar hp, what is the problem?

No problem at all.

Let's all have in mind that lightweight can be relative. Power to weight ratio is critical to straight line performance. Absolute weight figure plays an important role to handling and response to driver inputs.

Talking in European terms, 1200 kgs is a threshold for a sports car to be considered lightweight although this may sound (and actually be) a generalization...

The new Lotus Evora weighs around 1350 kgs and has a 280 hp N/A 3.5 V6. It is considered quite lardy. The fact that Lotus has been producing very light sports cars could play a role into this but doesn't change people's perception.

In USA, with all the Mustangs and Camaros and Challengers, 1300 kgs may sound ok but here in Europe, this figure brings to mind sluggish, underpowered family hatches...

Toyota is a global brand and all markets must be under consideration. What may make US happy, may not make happy European customers...

[Siriusly.Andrew]

Its in my experience a lot of tuners ended up buying the yaris as a DD that ended up with a list of "mods to do". I knew a guy on the Matrix forums that bought his wife a Yaris and ended up tuning / turbo'd it. It was an impulse - once a tuner, always a tuner. You'll always find something to mod/enhance/change and then tune, weather you custom fabricate the mod or buy it - weather its a 1990 tool shed or a 2011 Toyota FT-86 -- you catch the bug and you can't cure it