Those Brembos, fixed caliper? Or not? [Patent inside!]

[oneday]

Took a few days off the internets...man playing catch-up is a bitch...

Originally Posted by Type[R]+

Yeah, because supercars jeopardise saftey and braking performance for cool looks.

I'm just going to put this back up here and assume you will re-read it, then realize how utterly hilarious this statement is.

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

Thanks for the info. I really have no idea on who allows (or doesn't allow) carbon brakes.

Most sanctioning bodies disallow the CC rotors because they are trying to keep costs down for their participants. If CC rotors were allowed then only the teams with the deepest pockets would play and that would limit the fields, which limits spectators, sponsors, exposure and ultimately leads to the downfall of the organization. See Can-Am.

Originally Posted by Type[R]+

So you really think they use drilled rotors on production cars because they look cool?

Not just because they look cool, it's also the bottom line: As Dave-ROR already stated, someone buying an expensive sports car wants touches that make the car sportier-- they can charge you, the customer, an extra couple grand for those "sport" brakes. Think about the other little touches that make a car "sportier": Carbon or Aluminum trim (carbon-look or aluminum-look trim is a better example in lower end "sports cars"); alcantara wrapped steering wheel and/or seat inserts; fake hood scoops, side inlets, spoilers.

Originally Posted by Type[R]+

The BMW ALMS M3 uses cross drilled rear rotors, and grooved front rotors..

The front brakes do a good 70% of the stopping so they require more mass and durability. The rears do not get as hard of a workout...and do not need to be replaced nearly as often.

Here is what I tell my customers that have mentioned that they "read on the internet" or that they "saw some guy on a forum said [slotted/drilled] rotors are noisy":

You drive a sports car and you probably put an open-element intake on the car...a slightly louder exhaust, right? Oh, and a more aggressive clutch and lighter flywheel (the noisiest, most intrusive mod you can make to a modern sports car)? If can A) hear the difference between slotted/grooved, blank, or drilled rotors and B) care about the 1-3dB of added noise you should be driving a Prius, not a sports car.

FWIW, drilled rotors are noisier: All the little holes make a decent amount of noise (think little whistles).

Finally, regarding the statement that slotted/drilled rotors cause pads to wear faster: If it is true--and in the seven years I've been dealing with both rotor and pad companies on a daily basis, I've never seen any proof that it is--it would have to be so minimal that it's improbably that anyone would notice. Most street pad designs have a chamfered leading edge to help reduce noise and debris erosion. Race pads don't because they want as much surface area as possible and because they get worn through so quickly anyway.

Hawk Performance Ceramic (street pad)...chamfered:


Hawk Blue 9012 (race pad)...no chamfer:

[Type[R]+]

I agree with what you're saying, but still, if drilled rotors are so shit, why are they on every supercar? Slotted rotors are 'cool' too. As for charging extra for sport brakes, they are stock.... but even still, they could charge the same for slotted rotors or what ever other design.

As you are leading to, engineering - yep, they engineered the whole braking system, even cross drilled rotors to resist cracking. Not saying they've succeeded, but a few manufacturers I've written to claim they have never had a cracked drilled rotor returned.

Which brings me back to another point I made, it could just be because it's what brembo supplies. I have a strong suspicion you can't even get slotted carbon ceramic brakes.... Drilled might just be a lot stronger in this case.

And yes, the internet is full of shit, one bloke drilled his rotors and they broke, then everyone saying cross drilled rotors all crack, they are only to look cool ect....

As for drilled rotors being noiser than slotted? Never heard or read or experienced that. It's just a reasoning why they might use drilled over slotted on supercars, as well as the 'better' feel with light braking.

So yeah, just throwing it out there.... if slotted the best and drilled so shit, why do drilled rotors even exist, let alone on every supercar?

[Type[R]+]

Originally Posted by oneday

I'm just going to put this back up here and assume you will re-read it, then realize how utterly hilarious this statement is.

Sarcasm...

[Silverhks]

The reason drilled rotors are on supercars is appearance. As stated several times they generally only become a liability on track where you are constantly abusing the brakes and are not allowing them the cool. I personally have seen drilled rotors provided by respectable dealers cracked after a couple of 20 min lapping sessions.
I happen to think they might be a problem in an autox on heavy car, see an sti. I run hawk dtc-60 pads with blanks and have several pics and many comments about my brakes shooting flames. It's a fairly amazing site. Drilled rotors might not crack on my car despite this because there is not long term heat overload like on a track. I am not willing to find out for an appearance item.

As for slotting, I like the feel of slotted rotors. They are a little louder, and they do use pads quicker, but I like the higher initial and more consistent bite on less aggressive pads.

[Racecomp Engineering]

^ Right.

They're on supercars for appearance. They aren't "unsafe" for the street, so for the vast majority of supercar owners it's not an issue. They can stop just as fast, it's just that they are at a disadvantage when being subjected to a prolonged beating at the track with high sustained rotor temperatures. That isn't an issue for the street and most people won't have a problem, even in a supercar. Personally I don't think they look any better, so I stick with blanks anyway. Fancy j-hooks and crescent slots tend to be fine from a quality manufacturer.

- Andrew

[ZetaVI]

Those tires are custom made by Bridgestone for the FR-S. I think those are called Potenza RE86.

[nrclptcnsmniak]

Type-R. I give you credit for being a skeptic as a lot of people claim to be pro's online nowadays BUT everybody has told you why theyre on Porsche's, its for marketing. For some reason you dont want to accept that answer. And I dont think anybody has said drilled rotors are shit... if they did well then theyre wrong. Even if drilled rotors are a flawed design and theyre placed on Porsches, then maybe porsche has improved on the flawed design well enough to put it on their production vehicles. A lot of people think that Porsche having an engine in the rear of the car is flawed but porsche has developed it over the years for it to work for THEM. Ultimately I agree its for marketing but if you cant accept that then please try to accept that its not shit but probably flawed and if it is flawed then maybe some car companies have improved on the flawed design well enough to put it on their supercars

Just like the development of the microchip.

[spin9k]

The 'ol 'tip of the iceburg' theory ncely covers what you are discussing about rotors. Namely, when something is designed/created (like drilled and/or slotted rotors) there develops over time roughly 90% crap immitations (made for the street and for looks alone) and 10% well designed and engineered product made of high strength material that does the job originally intended (made to perform on track and street, under any condition up to and including racing).

Most people can be easily fooled by marketing words, unjustified high prices, and pretty looks when they go searching for what 'the big boys use'. Also because there is just so much of it out there. Ergo, they mostly end up buying crap, put it on their car and experience crap performance/failure, and tell everyone that what they thought was great is just crap. Word travels fast because there are way more of these unhappy folks than...

The few that by dumb luck or because they know crap from a hole in the ground at 20 paces, buy and use the real deal from people that know what they're doing and why. Also crap product is available for almost any car, whereas the good stuff is made only for a far smaller set of cars, unfortunate as that is.

These few get the performance they sought, keep their mouth shut and life goes on. They are the happy campers. Bottom line, if a company doesn't have an explainable engineering rationale behind their product's design, backup by a real and useable warranty and real-life evidence it works as intended, don't drink their coolaide nor waste your money.

Good slotted, and good drilled/slotted rotors do exist and don't generally crack abnormally or under stress. You just gotta pick/find them amongst all the junk

[Dave-ROR]

Stock Porsche ones crack after one track day I've never seen non carbon ones not crack. I mean drilled rotors. But did we have to restart this one? Lol

[Noble713]

Hmmm, pics of the production cars from Autoblog don't seem to have anything like Brembos.

http://www.autoblog.com/photos/2012-...photo-4643873/
http://www.autoblog.com/photos/2012-...photo-4644196/

They look like the same POS 2-piston front/1-piston rears that were stock on my Evo IV.

[Racecomp Engineering]

That's about expected for a car at the price point. STI brembos should hopefully bolt-on, but it's too early to tell (and the bias should be looked at). I'm sure the stock brakes will be adequate with good pads and fluid, though a BBK will be very helpful at the track with r-comps.

- Andrew

[mokinbird87]

i`m hoping the bbk from alcon for 5x100 will be a direct fit on the brz/fr-s

[Racecomp Engineering]

It's going to be important to consider brake bias on this car...it has a different weight distribution than a WRX so a kit designed for that car may not be ideal.

BUT when we get the car and measure piston sizes I could run some numbers and see how it would shift brake bias and it may be acceptable.

- drew

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by Noble713

They look like the same POS 2-piston front/1-piston rears that were stock on my Evo IV.

Those sliders stop the car just fine. I will bet you as much money as you want that they will provide enough braking force to lock the tires/engage ABS. You get a bit better modulation and pad wear with fixed 4 pots and such, but you'll stop the car just the same assuming everything else is the same.

How much benefit do you think they'll actually give you for the price on a street car where 90% of these cars will stay?

I will have no qualms running those brakes hard on the track. Spec series will likely REQUIRE stock brakes. If they are the same brake parts that stop pig WRXs all day long then they are already more than enough for this lighter, lower powered car.