Frs vs s2000

[Boxer486]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

All S2000 make downforce in the front.

You got a link for that? I'm having a hard time finding support for that and visualizing it looking at the front end of a stock s2k. This one seems to be in need of some help.





86 plots which seem to show more than just zero lift up front:


http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48283


Some S2K info:


http://robrobinette.com/S2000Aerodynamics.htm


To the other poster, I don't think anyone is hating on the S2k. Just a reality check that a stock s2k is not going to freaking destroy an 86. It's not like the thing came with pushrod suspension, slicks and a 6 liter LS motor. If someone wants a proven platform with tons of aftermarket support, research that isn't the best on the track or the street, but a really really good jack of all trades then feel free to buy used and enjoy. The s2k makes perfect sense. Very few cars deserve mythic god like status and neither the s2K nor 86 do IMHO.


For a DD, I'll take the 86's superior comfort, ergonomics, cargo space, mileage, high speed stability, reduced drag and warranty even though I don't let stealerships wrench on my car.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by Superstar

BRZ with 40 more hp vs S2000 with rear wing.. Which one do you think would be quicker? I think it would be very close, demonstrating that the BRZ is slower mainly because of a lack of power.

S2K.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

I've spent many, many evenings pondering this.

I just can't justify doing so to a brand new car. In a few more years we should both swap ours. The FA20 will be on ebay cheap, just like my FA20Club intake will be if I ever care enough to bother. I had a hard time being motivated to sell shit (literally in this case).

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by DylanFRS

Yeah! So we give them the same engine, same suspension, same chassis, same gearing, and a rear wing? Then which one @CSG Mike? I bet the BRZ will be faster because everyone knows that Subaru badges are faster on any given track than Honda badges.

Maybe, but I did pass every FRS at Road Atlanta last weekend (in my 170bhp at best Integra). Maybe the Scion badge is slower than both!

[gramicci101]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

Maybe, but I did pass every FRS at Road Atlanta last weekend (in my 170bhp at best Integra). Maybe the Scion badge is slower than both!

That's why people swap in Toyota badges. Everyone knows Toyota has a proven racing history.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Boxer486

You got a link for that? I'm having a hard time finding support for that and visualizing it looking at the front end of a stock s2k. This one seems to be in need of some help.

[chrisl]

OK, what are each of those lines. That isn't exactly a well-annotated plot...

[tahdizzle]

this is just a guess, but the lower line is Down force: rear, the middle line is Down Force: Front, and the last line is the level of Dizzle's awsomeness at increasing speed.

[chrisl]

Originally Posted by Boxer486

86 plots which seem to show more than just zero lift up front:


http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48283

Interesting - this picture seems to indicate that the BRZ/FRS has about a 1kPa low pressure zone under the front bumper, with very near ambient pressure on top of the hood. That would imply a front downforce of somewhere in the neighborhood of 100-130 pounds at whatever speed that simulation was run (I think 100mph?). It would be significantly increased with the addition of a proper splitter, too, if you wanted more. That having been said, the only actual wind tunnel data I can find of the BRZ/FRS indicates that it has some lift at both the front and rear axle. I'm not sure if that means that the sim linked above is wrong, or just that my eyeball integration of the pressure around the car is incorrect (which is very possible - I'd be curious to see the actual front and rear net force that the program reports).

[juliog]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

I believe the pink line says 'drag' (du-raa-gu). I assume purple is front downforce (positive), blue is rear downforce (negative = lift)..

[tahdizzle]

Originally Posted by juliog

The pink line says 'drag' (du-raa-gu).

Actually, I think it says "Dizzle's Awesomeness".

Trust me, I watch a lot of Hentai.

[chrisl]

Originally Posted by tahdizzle

this is just a guess, but the lower line is Down force: rear, the middle line is Down Force: Front, and the last line is the level of Dizzle's awsomeness at increasing speed.

If that's the case, I wouldn't exactly say that the car makes any significant front downforce stock. That trendline only shows about 30-40 pounds of front downforce at 100mph, and the 4 data points (assuming that's what the dots on the left side are) look so close to zero that I question whether the trend is really supported by the data, or whether it's just an artifact of some noise in the data or a slight error of some kind. It's hard to say for sure without knowing the methods used to get the data points, as well as the margin of error of each, but that looks like fairly weak support to me.

(the level of rear lift at speed is pretty appalling though - I can definitely see why a wing would really help that car)

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by chrisl

If that's the case, I wouldn't exactly say that the car makes any significant front downforce stock. That trendline only shows about 30-40 pounds of front downforce at 100mph, and the 4 data points (assuming that's what the dots on the left side are) look so close to zero that I question whether the trend is really supported by the data, or whether it's just an artifact of some noise in the data or a slight error of some kind. It's hard to say for sure without knowing the methods used to get the data points, as well as the margin of error of each, but that looks like fairly weak support to me.

(the level of rear lift at speed is pretty appalling though - I can definitely see why a wing would really help that car)

Making front downforce is substantially more difficult than rear.

Tamon Design kit with Voltex Type 1 rear wing:









Wait, what? The stock bumper makes MORE downforce, than that aftermarket bumper with integrated splitter and canard?


Voltex S2000 kit with underbody (flat + vents) and Voltex Type 7:







I can't find the picture, but the AP2 bumper makes significantly more downforce than the AP1 bumper...

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by chrisl

If that's the case, I wouldn't exactly say that the car makes any significant front downforce stock. That trendline only shows about 30-40 pounds of front downforce at 100mph, and the 4 data points (assuming that's what the dots on the left side are) look so close to zero that I question whether the trend is really supported by the data, or whether it's just an artifact of some noise in the data or a slight error of some kind. It's hard to say for sure without knowing the methods used to get the data points, as well as the margin of error of each, but that looks like fairly weak support to me.

(the level of rear lift at speed is pretty appalling though - I can definitely see why a wing would really help that car)

Really any actual downforce at speed is better than most cars. A lot of car companies use "reduce lift" in marketing materials because that's what their wings/etc do - reduce lift. They do not generate actual downforce though. Most cars generate lift at speed. The BRZ and FRS do IIRC.