Performance automatics

[madfast]

Mazda's Skyactiv Automatic

mazda understand that automatics can be improved upon...

[Allch Chcar]

Originally Posted by madfast

are you referring to the lower redline in the auto miata and rx-8? people have removed the limiter so its not like the torque converter literally explodes above 7k rpm or something like that. auto RX-8's have gone 9000 rpm. the auto doesnt like it very much, but if you rev lower to about 8500 rpm, it's perfectly fine... longevity? i dunno. but having an upgraded TC stock so it can handle revs reliably is not something new. they could easily do it if they really wanted. but something tells me most companies wouldnt due to costs.

but my hope has always been that toyota can and will take that extra step...

No. I am talking about how they detuned the engine to protect the transmission.

[Matador]

I wish Toyota would get with it and upgrade their forgotten SMT transmission. Get the Upshift right, add an automatic shift mode, and it would be golden. Failing that a torque converter lockup system like the IS F's would be cool.

Originally Posted by Exage

My guess is 3 pages in and this will happen.

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

If Toyota/Subaru is reading this, don't even sell it with an automatic, maybe a DSG since that's the in-thing, but no automatic.

Too late.

[serialk11r]

Speaking of Mazda Skyactiv, I just checked out their website and I feel like they aren't telling the whole story. For example for the transmissions, they claim their transmission is smooth, while dual clutch and regular auto are not, but their transmission is pretty similar to a regular auto, which by avoiding lockup, creates rather smooth operation. Also for their engine, they don't really specify, but to me it sounds like they're trying to tell everyone that the piston cavity and improved exhaust alone can allow the compression increase to 14:1, which I don't really buy.

[n2oinferno]

I don't see why a dual clutch is out of the picture. I had one in my GTI, and it was a great transmission for a car starting under 23k. I do have a manual preference, but the newer automatics are great for performance. I keep saying I definitely want a manual for my next vehicle, but I'd be lying if I said I'm completely discounting the auto if it's built for performance.

[madfast]

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

I wish Toyota would get with it and upgrade their forgotten SMT transmission. Get the Upshift right, add an automatic shift mode, and it would be golden. Failing that a torque converter lockup system like the IS F's would be cool.

you mean like in the LF-A?

[madfast]

Originally Posted by n2oinferno

I don't see why a dual clutch is out of the picture. I had one in my GTI, and it was a great transmission for a car starting under 23k. I do have a manual preference, but the newer automatics are great for performance. I keep saying I definitely want a manual for my next vehicle, but I'd be lying if I said I'm completely discounting the auto if it's built for performance.

probably cost... its easier to change the software and a few mechanical bits to approximate a dual-clutch. it CAN be done, it HAS been done. its just a matter of whether or not they would...

oh and the GTi DSG isnt exactly the best example for sporty dual clutches. they auto upshift at redline. 100% not sporty. some conventional automatics with manual mode dont even do that...

[Dimman]

As for the dual clutch, I don't see any in either Toyota's or Subaru's current lineup. But Toyota does have RWD torque converter 6 speed autos. Like I said, if it has a transmission from an IS series, and they mod it like Lotus did with the Camry 'box in the Evora, the auto will be fine for those that want it in their car.

[madfast]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

Speaking of Mazda Skyactiv, I just checked out their website and I feel like they aren't telling the whole story. For example for the transmissions, they claim their transmission is smooth, while dual clutch and regular auto are not, but their transmission is pretty similar to a regular auto, which by avoiding lockup, creates rather smooth operation. Also for their engine, they don't really specify, but to me it sounds like they're trying to tell everyone that the piston cavity and improved exhaust alone can allow the compression increase to 14:1, which I don't really buy.

it is a regular auto. the "innovation" if you want to call it that is in the torque converter. they made it smaller and fit a multiplate clutch in the space saved. they also could fit a larger damper which makes the lock up smoother.

the change vs other conventional autos is also in their philosophy. they WANT to lock the torque converter for a more direct feel and for fuel econ. they also want to lock it up sooner and for a longer period of time. it looks as if the locked state is the "normal" operation of the tranny and the torque converter acts exactly like how you would slip the clutch in a manual. the multiplate clutch and larger damper makes the lock up smoother so you can lock up sooner, and more often, and not have the clunkiness a single clutched unit may have. its a paradigm shift. the locked state is now the normal state and the torque converter is used to "slip the clutch" to get there.

hopefully toyota can adopt a similar philosophy... they have in the uber expensive IS-F, but will they with the FT???

[n2oinferno]

Originally Posted by madfast

oh and the GTi DSG isnt exactly the best example for sporty dual clutches. they auto upshift at redline. 100% not sporty. some conventional automatics with manual mode dont even do that...

True. If it's a bothersome point though, aftermarket software corrects that. I don't know the shift times off the top of my head for automatic vehicles in this price range, but the DSG was ridiculously fast.

Originally Posted by Dimman

As for the dual clutch, I don't see any in either Toyota's or Subaru's current lineup. But Toyota does have RWD torque converter 6 speed autos. Like I said, if it has a transmission from an IS series, and they mod it like Lotus did with the Camry 'box in the Evora, the auto will be fine for those that want it in their car.

Not currently, but I think the market is trending that way. Gotta start somewhere.

[madfast]

Originally Posted by n2oinferno

True. If it's a bothersome point though, aftermarket software corrects that. I don't know the shift times off the top of my head for automatic vehicles in this price range, but the DSG was ridiculously fast.

aftermarket corrects a lot of stuff but it should never have left the factory like that. that was my point. the DSG is awesome, it does a lot of stuff right, BUT on a car like the GTi, the DSG should NOT auto upshift. i dont remember but i think the S4 S-tronic might also have the dreaded auto upshift. it is simply UNACCEPTABLE on a car like that...

Originally Posted by n2oinferno

Not currently, but I think the market is trending that way. Gotta start somewhere.

i think i read somewhere that the dual clutch has sort of peaked. the lambo aventador chose not to go that route. its heavy, complicated, and very expensive. on supercars, automated manuals have caught up. the aventador's ISR is the fastest shifting production tranny and weighs just 70 kgs.

but for the run of the mill expensive performance car, im sure it still has a place. porsche PDK, bmw M-DCT, etc.

on regular cars, automatics have made huge strides and it doesnt pay to go all out with a DCT when you can get similar performance out of a new age auto. i am in no way saying auto is "better" than DCT. just that with new tech, the autos have caught up to a point where the DCT may be considered overkill. its just too expensive and complex for a "regular" car.

[madfast]

as a side note, CVT's have also "peaked". it seems as though nissan is one of the few companies that pimps the CVT. nissan owns JATCO, one of the main makers of CVT's. coincidence? i think not.

the automatic is making a resurgence imo. the mazda skyactiv is one example of what you can do. you dont have to "step down" to a CVT for mpgs. you dont have to "step up" to a DCT for direct feel.

edit: subaru also uses a lot of CVT's... compared to the old crappy 4 speed i guess that's actually a plus?

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by madfast

as a side note, CVT's have also "peaked". it seems as though nissan is one of the few companies that pimps the CVT. nissan owns JATCO, one of the main makers of CVT's. coincidence? i think not.

the automatic is making a resurgence imo. the mazda skyactiv is one example of what you can do. you dont have to "step down" to a CVT for mpgs. you dont have to "step up" to a DCT for direct feel.

edit: subaru also uses a lot of CVT's... compared to the old crappy 4 speed i guess that's actually a plus?

Subaru is a big CVT user too.

[madfast]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Subaru is a big CVT user too.

LOL i just edited it right before you posted!

and for that matter mitsu also loves the CVT. but i forgive them because they also have the SST dual clutch. subaru? they dont have any performance automatics. imo this is a shame...

in japan they have a crappier version of the STI with an auto, but that's not enough...