Why are expensive brakes better?

[ABQautoxer]

But even on those, a simple brake pad change can fix the problem 99% of the time as they are only seeing street use.

[mla163]

Originally Posted by camelflage

this is what you commonly find in the street scene with modified cars running fat grippy tires on 19 inch wheels and stock honda brakes.. the weight and grip of the wheels/tires will overheat the stock brakes and then you get super dorifto oh god cant stop rear-end a school bus kids on fire... so a BBK will help give the added pressure and heat management capabilities to slow down that extra rolling mass...

It's not the extra rolling mass of the wheel/tire combo that will overheat the brakes - 50 lbs vs 40 lbs is nothing. It's the increased frictional force from stickier tires that will increase the stress on the braking system.

It's worth restating that big brakes do nothing if you can lock up the tires. If you can lock up the tires, then upgrade the tires. If you are getting pad fade, upgrade the pads. Outside of the fast and furious crowd, a BBK is not really needed unless you are tracking the car.

For reference, Miata guys will downgrade their brakes from bigger to smaller just to save weight.

If you like the look of shiny new brakes, go nuts. But you won't get any performance advantage out of it.

[camelflage]

Originally Posted by ABQautoxer

But even on those, a simple brake pad change can fix the problem 99% of the time as they are only seeing street use.

Originally Posted by mla163

It's not the extra rolling mass of the wheel/tire combo that will overheat the brakes - 50 lbs vs 40 lbs is nothing. It's the increased frictional force from stickier tires that will increase the stress on the braking system.

It's worth restating that big brakes do nothing if you can lock up the tires. If you can lock up the tires, then upgrade the tires. If you are getting pad fade, upgrade the pads. Outside of the fast and furious crowd, a BBK is not really needed unless you are tracking the car.

For reference, Miata guys will downgrade their brakes from bigger to smaller just to save weight.

If you like the look of shiny new brakes, go nuts. But you won't get any performance advantage out of it.

correct, i should have added the caveat of "if not tracking the car, its really unnecessary"

just trying to generalize for people who may not be planning to take their car to the track what bbk could possibly be useful for..

[empower-auto]

Considering what you're buying .. are brake calipers not the most extravagantly over-priced aftermarket items? You'd think with the evolution of technology and manufacturing that someone hasn't figured out how to make a quality 4 pot upgrade for ~$1000. Think about this .. $1000 is a LOT of money to sink into making something as simple as a caliper on a mass scale.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by empower-auto

Considering what you're buying .. are brake calipers not the most extravagantly over-priced aftermarket items? You'd think with the evolution of technology and manufacturing that someone hasn't figured out how to make a quality 4 pot upgrade for ~$1000. Think about this .. $1000 is a LOT of money to sink into making something as simple as a caliper on a mass scale.

That's like saying someone would have figured out how to make a set of quality forged rims for ~$1000...

Unfortunately, supply and demand gets us all

[jadewbj]

I'm no expert but if size does nothing to help you stop then why wont a SUV with huge wheels and extra weight not stop with factory brakes?

I have a friend who builds demo cars and they put 26's on a Armada along with a ton of weight from a stereo. With the stock brakes the car would barely stop, to the point of being really dangerous.

They upgraded to a much larger brembo setup and all was well.

[ABQautoxer]

Because the heat generated from a 5000lbs+ SUV vs a 2700lbs sports car are not the same. There is a minimum amount of braking needed for each type, anything beyond that is overkill. The point being for the 86s, the stock brakes with upgraded pads will be more than good enough at its stock weight/power. Now up the power and/or weight and you have to recalculate that formula. Make sense?

[AJUSA.com]

Originally Posted by jadewbj

I'm no expert but if size does nothing to help you stop then why wont a SUV with huge wheels and extra weight not stop with factory brakes?

I have a friend who builds demo cars and they put 26's on a Armada along with a ton of weight from a stereo. With the stock brakes the car would barely stop, to the point of being really dangerous.

They upgraded to a much larger brembo setup and all was well.

The larger Brembo setup came with a much more aggressive set of brake pads, that is where the added stopping power is coming from. :happy0180:

Unless it is a dedicated track car, a set of Stainless lines, performance brake pads & high temp brake fluid should be more than good.

[jadewbj]

Originally Posted by AJUSA.com

The larger Brembo setup came with a much more aggressive set of brake pads, that is where the added stopping power is coming from. :happy0180:

Unless it is a dedicated track car, a set of Stainless lines, performance brake pads & high temp brake fluid should be more than good.

Never knew that. I was always under the impression if you add huge wheels with tons of rotational mass, and weight to an SUV larger brakes would be required.

If size makes no difference than why are there different brake rotor and caliper sizes? Wouldn't there be a standard small setup with different hardness of pads?

Not trying to argue, just understand.

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by jadewbj

Never knew that. I was always under the impression if you add huge wheels with tons of rotational mass, and weight to an SUV larger brakes would be required.

If size makes no difference than why are there different brake rotor and caliper sizes? Wouldn't there be a standard small setup with different hardness of pads?

Not trying to argue, just understand.

SUV's only have larger brakes because the center hub is larger to accommodate a 6 or more bolt pattern and thicker driveshafts, etc. or a larger bolt pattern (such as a porsche.. 120X5)

sometimes it's the HAT that's larger, and subsequently the outer diameter grows..

if you measure the actual shiny part and brake pad area you'll be surprised how similar it is.. among most cars.

[mla163]

Originally Posted by jadewbj

Never knew that. I was always under the impression if you add huge wheels with tons of rotational mass, and weight to an SUV larger brakes would be required.

Think about it this way...

Flip a bicycle upside down. Spin the wheels. Squeeze the brakes. They stop instantly.

Now ride the bike at the same speed, the wheel is harder to brake because of the mass of the bike and rider.

You aren't stopping just the tire. You are stopping the entire vehicle. The wheel and tire weights have very little to do with stopping power.

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by jadewbj

Never knew that. I was always under the impression if you add huge wheels with tons of rotational mass, and weight to an SUV larger brakes would be required.

If size makes no difference than why are there different brake rotor and caliper sizes? Wouldn't there be a standard small setup with different hardness of pads?

Not trying to argue, just understand.

Size DOES make a difference, it's just not always a positive one.

Brake torque is affected by piston area and rotor diameter, but pad size doesn't matter (other than lasting longer). This can be used to adjust brake bias or simply offer more "stopping power" (i realize that's not really the right word). Tires are almost always still the limiting factor in stopping distances, but it is possible to increase braking forces in a useful way for a system that has dramatically changed from stock (i.e. hoosiers on a car that started with seriously undersized brakes). But again, bias is very important in all cases. There are big brake kits that use larger rotors but send bias slightly rearwards by using smaller pistons...

The reason we don't just use super aggressive pads with small rotors is because the larger heat sink from the rotor is more useful than a very aggressive pad that eats through rotors quickly and takes a long time to get up to operating temp. Also, larger rotors operating at lower temps keeps other things around them from being cooked (hubs, hoses, etc.).

- Andrew

[jadewbj]

Super interesting. I love learning new things, especially about cars.

[AJUSA.com]

Originally Posted by jadewbj

Never knew that. I was always under the impression if you add huge wheels with tons of rotational mass, and weight to an SUV larger brakes would be required.

If size makes no difference than why are there different brake rotor and caliper sizes? Wouldn't there be a standard small setup with different hardness of pads?

Not trying to argue, just understand.

Larger brakes theoretically will provide the car with more stopping power, but there are a ton of factors that play in to how well the system will work, its much more than size. Too big and it will hurt the cars performance.

When upgrading the brake system these are some of the things we look at including but not limited too:

Tire size & compound
Suspension components & setup
F - R Bias
Brake pad size & compound
Brake fluid compound
Caliper size, piston diameter, piston count, piston bias.
Rotor compound, pad to rotor surface area.
Master cylinder size & pressures.
Plumbing