Hollow front sway bar: Tanabe?

[xwd]

I've seen a number of people selling them individually.

The thing is the lower setting on the front Eibach is just slightly lower than the Cusco 20MM solid one, 169% stiffer versus 179% stiffer for the 20MM Cusco. And the higher setting imho is way too high to use alone as a front swaybar, you would need to use it in conjunction with a larger rear.

I'm assuming Sam's other posts/threads got deleted?

[Sam Strano]

Well, let's see if this gets deleted, yes the others were because it would seem I'm not even allowed to answer questions without being a sponsor. FWIW, I've been trying to do just that but had a hell of a time finding the information. I'm a computer/web non-expert... Anyway, I've paid the sponsor fee of $79 a month to be back and answer questions.

I do think the 25mm will be too much, it's meant to be teamed with their 19mm rear which is HUGE compared to the 14mm, and you'd pretty much need the 25mm front if you wanted to do that big on the rear.

Now, because of the Torsen, and the fact the I have more than once managed to pick up the inside rear tire turning into my garage and such (which isn't steep and my C6 Z06 doesn't do it despite the mongo rear bar it has stock), I don't really want to make that worse.

***NOTE*** I am a sponsor, it's not showing under my screen name, but I am. So I expect this post to stay put. I hope.

[simpleisbest]

Thanks Sam! For Stock Class tuning, how do you think the big (25mm) front would react at its stiff settings with stock rear bar and stock springs with a strut car like ours? 1) on street tires 2) on R-compounds?

Getting some experienced autocrosser insight would be good information, imo.

[ABQautoxer]

Sam can reply but from my perspective it will be the same old game in stock class RWD setup. A bigger bar will help make the torsen work right but too big will add understeer in a few spots so its a compromise. So we trade off a little balance for that. There is a range as not everyone likes the same compromise level. 22mm hollow adjustable is safe start as the 20mm solid non-adjustable seems to be close so this is save weight and have an adjustment.

[simpleisbest]

Thanks Tom! Would it be safe to assume initially that street tires would need less stiff of a bar (generally) due to the lower levels of g's vs R-compounds?

[ABQautoxer]

Originally Posted by simpleisbest

Thanks Tom! Would it be safe to assume initially that street tires would need less stiff of a bar (generally) due to the lower levels of g's vs R-compounds?

Actually no, not necessarily a guarantee. The reason being is r compounds will generate more grip and thus roll but the smaller contact patch on the inside rear will also be gripper thanks to the better tire. I have seen in some cases where people have claimed they needed more front bar on streets though that has not been the case for me and may have been more of an issue when street tires were much farther apart in performance. This year with the WRX we found we ended up using the exact bar on street tires the twin of our car and highest finishing WRX at Nats on race tires was using after independent testing. Neither of us won so YMMV.

[apexaddict]

Originally Posted by ABQautoxer

Sam can reply but from my perspective it will be the same old game in stock class RWD setup. A bigger bar will help make the torsen work right but too big will add understeer in a few spots so its a compromise.

I'm usually of the opinion that with a camber-limited, strut-suspension'ed car on A6s, the more bar you can fit on the car, the better. You typically can't get enough camber out of a strut to keep the front happy in Stock, so you may as well try to preserve as much of it as you can by jacking the front rate up with a big bar, then balance the rest with alignment and shocks.

With the FRS/BRZ, this may or may not be true. The front seems surprisingly well-composed despite its limited camber and softness as-is. So for now, I'll agree with Sam that 25mm might be too big (in fact, he kinda-sorta talked me out of it). I plan on starting with Sam's bar first, then moving to the Eibach if I feel it's necessary.

[des]

I've got the Cusco bar and run Star Specs, with bolts and -1.5 up front. The car is on the edge of pushy, and there is no lift-throttle oversteer.

I zeroed out the rear toe yesterday and hope that helps. No way I'd go to 25 as it stands ...

(Note that Trevor and John said their identically prepped BRZ was hard to keep under them.)

[ABQautoxer]

Originally Posted by apexaddict

I'm usually of the opinion that with a camber-limited, strut-suspension'ed car on A6s, the more bar you can fit on the car, the better. You typically can't get enough camber out of a strut to keep the front happy in Stock, so you may as well try to preserve as much of it as you can by jacking the front rate up with a big bar, then balance the rest with alignment and shocks.

With the FRS/BRZ, this may or may not be true. The front seems surprisingly well-composed despite its limited camber and softness as-is. So for now, I'll agree with Sam that 25mm might be too big (in fact, he kinda-sorta talked me out of it). I plan on starting with Sam's bar first, then moving to the Eibach if I feel it's necessary.

Agreed that can help, definitely worked even on the double wishbone Miatas. We think it helped the WRX for the same reason this year.

Originally Posted by des

(Note that Trevor and John said their identically prepped BRZ was hard to keep under them.)

It will be interesting to see if its really a BRZ vs FRS thing or some other subtle factor like their alignment such as rear toe was different.

[apexaddict]

Originally Posted by ABQautoxer

It will be interesting to see if its really a BRZ vs FRS thing or some other subtle factor like their alignment such as rear toe was different.

Off topic a bit, but I'm going to go with the latter.

I've driven a factory bone stock FR-S (mine) and a factory bone stock BRZ Limited (a friend's) back-to-back at the same event in similar conditions. While the cars do feel different, the difference isn't big enough to justify one car or the other. The FR-S was a little bit sharper and more responsive to inputs, and the BRZ put its power down a bit better, but it was not a night-and-day difference at all. The BRZ ended up being a couple of tenths quicker but I think that's just because our local lot is very gritty and being able to put the power down earlier was an advantage.

Based on the published spring rates, the roll couple is only shifted forward by about 50lbs/in on the BRZ, so it's not terribly significant.

I took a bunch of video from this event and meant to do a whole write-up on it but I've been too busy/lazy.

[Sam Strano]

I drove John Ryan's car on the Cusco and aligned and all. It was too free. That said I don't think you want a massive amount more front bar because the lot we were running tends to be pretty low grip which loosens EVERY rear wheel drive car I've ever run there up. I also know to what degree as I have run there lots, and in fact was running my Corvette there that same day as well.

Add stickier tires than the well used AD08's John has to a lot with more reasonable grip and I strongly, STRONGLY feel the 22 is on the mark. I have decided to make a small tweak to wall thickness (a touch more) which might put it back to the stocker's 5 pounds because while on my car it's money I have my springs setup stiffer in front than in the rear, which stock cars do not, and most coil-over kits do not. AND I have -2 camber in the rear which helps the mid-corner grip too.

[ABQautoxer]

Check out the FT86Club Official Vendor.

Sounds like you are almost on the home stretch on the bar.

[simpleisbest]

Glad to see your finally a vendor, Sam!
Hopefully they bring back your thread on the sway bar.

Any rough ETA on release date and price?

[Sam Strano]

Not all strut cars have terrible camber curves, and that's when you want to pound a ton of front bar on them to control the contact patch. Fox and SN95 Mustangs, and older VW's are this way. Terrible camber loss due to body roll.

This car, not so much. Here we are doing it to tame the car in the rear vs. add grip in the front. If you overbar the front, you will cause the car to push.