Official for scion...

[PAImportTuner]

Originally Posted by ft86cbx

Ok. This will probably wind people up, but im going to play devils advocate...

Does it make sense for Subaru to release their own version of this car?

Its been said they would never have gone alone on this project, so would it be better financially to just do the joint venture as providing the bits they are for Toyota and creaming off some of the profits rather than spending on revising bumpers etc for little change?

Ok so a turbo version *if it ever happened* may yield more $$ for them, but I just dont see the point of a Subaru version with a different badge.

No, TBH it doesn't make sense unless Subaru has a standard model with option of moon-roof and other creature comforts. What's the point of having 2 cars with the same n/a drivetrain at the same/similar price. No point, especially when 1 brand is a semi-premium brand. I rather Subaru wait and release something that fits with their company model and current performance line-up.

[1660]

Originally Posted by ft86cbx

Ok. This will probably wind people up, but im going to play devils advocate...

Does it make sense for Subaru to release their own version of this car?

Its been said they would never have gone alone on this project, so would it be better financially to just do the joint venture as providing the bits they are for Toyota and creaming off some of the profits rather than spending on revising bumpers etc for little change?

Ok so a turbo version *if it ever happened* may yield more $$ for them, but I just dont see the point of a Subaru version with a different badge.

For Subaru, it's about increasing market share. Toyota comes out with mainstream products and sells volume. Subaru is basically a niche marketer and the joint project allows them to enter into the mainstream. This product can also sell worldwide.

[PAImportTuner]

Originally Posted by 1660

For Subaru, it's about increasing market share. Toyota comes out with mainstream products and sells volume. Subaru is basically a niche marketer and the joint project allows them to enter into the mainstream. This product can also sell worldwide.

True, being small and RWD puts them into another market but what separates this car from Toyota? If this product deviates too much from Subaru's performance model then they may have a problem selling it to consumers as a performance vehicle..

[ft86cbx]

All the Subaru press release are along the lines of theyre going to release a car as a joint venture. This I dont doubt.

Im not 100% convinced they will release their own version. At least not at the start.

I think they may just stick with the joint venture (read Toyota/Scion) whilst they decide how/if they want to spin off their own take on it.

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by PAImportTuner

No, TBH it doesn't make sense unless Subaru has a standard model with option of moon-roof and other creature comforts. What's the point of having 2 cars with the same n/a drivetrain at the same/similar price. No point, especially when 1 brand is a semi-premium brand. I rather Subaru wait and release something that fits with their company model and current performance line-up.

Then why Toyota and Subaru made Toyota bB (Scion xB) & Subaru Dex. Daihatsu Tanto Exe (Daihatsu is owned by Toyota) & Subaru Lucra. Daihatsu Mira & Subaru Pleo. Opel Zafira & Subaru Traviq. Suzuki Cultus & Subaru Justy. They're all same thing, only difference is emblem and the name. We're talking bout they've been doing these kind of things from early 80's, why they need to stop it now?

It's all bout brand names. Some ppl prefer Toyota brand name over Subaru. Same goes w Subaru over Daihatsu and on and on. If they can make $ from just changing the brand name and customers are dumb enough to buy it then they're smart for doing that.

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by ft86cbx

All the Subaru press release are along the lines of theyre going to release a car as a joint venture. This I dont doubt.

Im not 100% convinced they will release their own version. At least not at the start.

I think they may just stick with the joint venture (read Toyota/Scion) whilst they decide how/if they want to spin off their own take on it.

You confuse me with your logic. Read up on NASIOC and SOA blog posts. This car is being made at a Subaru plant. Yes even the Toyota version. Yes the Subaru car is coming out, as its own, branded as a Subaru. Yes it is coming. Confirmed for spring 2012.

[madfast]

Originally Posted by PAImportTuner

Matrix > Vibe only thing that sold the Vibe was "American" brand and 100k warranty.. Look where the company is now.

how is the matrix better than the vibe when those 2 cars were basically the exact same thing with different exterior? its going to be exactly the same with the FT....

Originally Posted by PAImportTuner

STI spelled backwards is force induction. $6+k premium will need to have more power to survive in the Subaru world, I can give 2 shits about Toyota world. If there is an agreement, which I feel there is because of this model deviating from Subaru's model, I see Subaru doing poorly. NASIOC and other Subaru sites already opened an ass whooping for no AWD or standard turbo, but to release a STI model without AWD let alone FI is blasphemous. Did you see how consumers responded to the 08' WRX LMAO, they quickly changed it a year later for bigger turbo(40hp) and better handling and even that wasn't good enough so then came STI flares, price basically stayed the same. That's what happens when Toyota adds their insight on looks and Suby guys say no..

well, there you go. the above sounds a lot like evidence of either NO sti model or one that doesnt deserve the sti badge... both scenarios sound infinitely more likely than an sti model coming out with turbo...

[madfast]

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

Then why Toyota and Subaru made Toyota bB (Scion xB) & Subaru Dex. Daihatsu Tanto Exe (Daihatsu is owned by Toyota) & Subaru Lucra. Daihatsu Mira & Subaru Pleo. Opel Zafira & Subaru Traviq. Suzuki Cultus & Subaru Justy. They're all same thing, only difference is emblem and the name. We're talking bout they've been doing these kind of things from early 80's, why they need to stop it now?

It's all bout brand names. Some ppl prefer Toyota brand name over Subaru. Same goes w Subaru over Daihatsu and on and on. If they can make $ from just changing the brand name and customers are dumb enough to buy it then they're smart for doing that.

yep. and lets not forget the obvious. color choices, wheels, body kits, etc. all of the above can separate the car enough to make it look like its own car. the perfect example that i can think of is the dodge stealth and 3000gt. a few exterior changes that made both cars look different, yet they still looked alike.

[madfast]

Originally Posted by ft86cbx

All the Subaru press release are along the lines of theyre going to release a car as a joint venture. This I dont doubt.

Im not 100% convinced they will release their own version. At least not at the start.

I think they may just stick with the joint venture (read Toyota/Scion) whilst they decide how/if they want to spin off their own take on it.

can anybody give an example of a joint venture where one side takes the joint idea and spins off their own version of it for themselves only?

[Kage]

Originally Posted by madfast

yep. and lets not forget the obvious. color choices, wheels, body kits, etc. all of the above can separate the car enough to make it look like its own car. the perfect example that i can think of is the dodge stealth and 3000gt. a few exterior changes that made both cars look different, yet they still looked alike.

Color choices....now that I think about it I hate scion colors....maybe I will be going subaru after all then

[Aki]

Originally Posted by 1660

For Subaru, it's about increasing market share. Toyota comes out with mainstream products and sells volume. Subaru is basically a niche marketer and the joint project allows them to enter into the mainstream. This product can also sell worldwide.

It's not as simple as that. A RWD lightweight coupe is also a niche car, it's not practical as say an Impreza for Subaru. So no, don't think this is Subaru's attempt to become mass market. They're not looking to this car as a volume seller.

This project allows Subaru to incorporate Toyota tech (D4-S) into their cars while offsetting R&D costs by producing the car as a joint venture.

Oh and whether it's produced in a Subaru factory or not doesn't reveal how similar/different the cars are. Do the two use different tooling at the factory? We don't know.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by Aki

It's not as simple as that. A RWD lightweight coupe is also a niche car, it's not practical as say an Impreza for Subaru. So no, don't think this is Subaru's attempt to become mass market. They're not looking to this car as a volume seller.

This project allows Subaru to incorporate Toyota tech (D4-S) into their cars while offsetting R&D costs by producing the car as a joint venture.

Oh and whether it's produced in a Subaru factory or not doesn't reveal how similar/different the cars are. Do the two use different tooling at the factory? We don't know.

True, and with this car they're making their niche bigger. And part of the Toyota partnership, is Subaru getting access to Toyota's proven hybrid tech which will also move them into a new market. It all grows their market.

People need to look past just the one model when looking at the Subaru/Toyota relationship.

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by Dimman

People need to look past just the one model when looking at the Subaru/Toyota relationship.

Well said. One just needs to read Subaru's "Motion-V plan" to get a taste of that. The FT86/216a project is just the first step.

[1660]

Originally Posted by PAImportTuner

True, being small and RWD puts them into another market but what separates this car from Toyota? If this product deviates too much from Subaru's performance model then they may have a problem selling it to consumers as a performance vehicle..

They don't have to separate from Toyota. For Subaru, it's called a product extension.