Possibly noob question from a not so noob manual driver

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by Capt Spaulding

Lol. A wider friction zone would be a blessing. on some cars and motorcycles. Back when stds were the norm (cue humfrz tractor meme), i recall more than a few lightswitch clutches. Apparently Subayota went too far trying to make the car easier for noobs.

This does make the slave cylinder swap sound more interesting, though.

I miss a good cable clutch.

[Capt Spaulding]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

I do. That's why familiarity with clutch throw adjustment is also important. The slave is not at issue. The TOB can get hung up if it goes too far. I touch on that in the thread.

Thanks. I'll give it a closer read. Oh, and I ordered the swap SC today - so I'm making a bit of a commitment.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

I miss a good cable clutch.

I understand the sentiment but I've come to the conclusion that I just miss a well designed clutch. Smaller slave isn't the end-all but it's a solid step in the right direction.

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

I understand the sentiment but I've come to the conclusion that I just miss a well designed clutch. Smaller slave isn't the end-all but it's a solid step in the right direction.

That probably is the case, but to this day I have never felt a hydraulic clutch that felt better then a good cable setup. There are plenty of bad cable setups though. I probably bought dozens of perch setups for my motorcycles back in the day to find one that I liked. I always ran the Yamaha GYTR perch/lever combo on everything I owned. It was cheap and so smooth.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by Capt Spaulding

Thanks. I'll give it a closer read. Oh, and I ordered the swap SC today - so I'm making a bit of a commitment.

Ask away if anything isn't clear. I have my own way of adjusting the pedal but it's more about the why than the how.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

That probably is the case, but to this day I have never felt a hydraulic clutch that felt better then a good cable setup. There are plenty of bad cable setups though. I probably bought dozens of perch setups for my motorcycles back in the day to find one that I liked. I always ran the Yamaha GYTR perch/lever combo on everything I owned. It was cheap and so smooth.

It'd be interesting to explore the kinematic differences between good and bad.

[T_Squadrito]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

I use MT-90 as well. Improved feel with little increase in noise.

I'll run through my spiel again. You might regret changing fluid because of the increased noise. Consider that.

This transmission has relatively small syncro clutches. I hate leaning into the gearshift.

The spinny parts of the gearbox, which are all swimming in thick oil, are driven two ways.

1. The input shaft drives them at all times.
2. When a gear is engaged, the output shaft will also drive them. Think engine braking.

With cold, thick oil, in neutral, clutch disengaged, the gears all quickly drag to a halt. The trick in getting from first to second in the cold is to not pause in neutral. Done quickly enough, with a gentle flick, no pause, it will fall into second. This is because the shift collar is already waiting for an opportunity to mesh with the target gear before the syncro clutch has to do any work.

In neutral, with clutch disengaged, once the gears all drag to a halt, they must then be spooled up again by the output shaft via the syncro clutch. That's where the difficulty is encountered.

If I don't shift quickly enough, while still in neutral, I engage the clutch and spin up the gears with a blip of the throttle. Then while they are still spinning faster than the output shaft, in one motion I disengage the clutch and again go for engaging second gear.

This is textbook "double clutching." It also helps with downshifting in all cases, including first gear on a roll.

Hey, so I got to about 40 miles on the new fluids and I know I can expect a little more noise out of new fluids but now first gear even when warm has some grinding noises with the clutch completely let up. I get into gear fine and I don’t seem to be slipping... it’s just now I get a sort of rhythmic cyclical and very quiet crunch. A friend of mine said, nah your scraping on the right side, but the suspension appears fine, I’m still on stock wheels, and I feel it in the clutch pedal. Coming from feeling nothing that has me scratching my head with a bit of concern. It’s very subtle, don’t get me wrong, and I am trying to both be honest without letting my fear blow it out of proportion, but it is audible coming from the center near the shifter and I can feel it in the pedal which has me a bit nervous. Could this be from the new fluids, the motul 300v, or is this something I should begin to worry about. My gut is screaming a tooth broke loose... but the timing feels strangely suspect after everything driving perfect for 40 miles and then suddenly it’s just not... As if maybe it’s just that the fluids cycled over and now it’s acting up because of new fluids. I don’t know what to make of it...

[ermax]

Can you elaborate a little more on when you are putting it in 1st? Are you at a stop at idle while in neutral and then pushing the clutch to the floor and then putting it in first? Or are you coming to a stop and in a higher gear and then trying to put it in first while still rolling? If you are attempting first while still moving, how fast are you moving?

Also, it’s not the fluid unless you just didn’t fill it enough. I typically fill it until it’s clearly flowing out on a slow steady pump. If you pump too hard it will sometimes back flow out and give the impression it’s full when it’s not.

[T_Squadrito]

Originally Posted by ermax

Can you elaborate a little more on when you are putting it in 1st? Are you at a stop at idle while in neutral and then pushing the clutch to the floor and then putting it in first? Or are you coming to a stop and in a higher gear and then trying to put it in first while still rolling? If you are attempting first while still moving, how fast are you moving?

Also, it’s not the fluid unless you just didn’t fill it enough. I typically fill it until it’s clearly flowing out on a slow steady pump. If you pump too hard it will sometimes back flow out and give the impression it’s full when it’s not.

The problem is happening between 1.8 and 2.5k rpm. Clutch completely off, just first gear. I usually never downshift to first unless for some reason we really are rolling at 4mph, but usually if I am coming to a stop then I pull into neutral at the stop and let off the clutch until the light turns then back into first and begin rolling. Always go clutch to the floor and I don’t rest my foot on the clutch or ride it. I’m also careful not slamming gears at all really. Especially low ones, really no point IMO. I cant speak to what the last owner may have done though. What’s funny is, It’s a bit ass backwards... now I have this problem hot but you don’t hear anything when it’s cold (based on the single drive late at night that I caught the problem LOL). My goal to say with all this is, I don’t think it’s a syncro simply because it goes into gear fine and really with no more or less noise than any other gear and it goes in clean with little to no resistance. Trouble comes as the clutch is 70-80% off and ends really just when I either up shift or if I really floor the gas to get above 3-4k at which point the problem stops. Almost has this sound sorta like a ratchet. It’s sorta clicky and I feel that in the clutch pedal. I will say it does sound a little like a tire rubbing on the fender but that isn’t an issue (had to look just to be sure... not that new suspension is all that much less expensive than a transmission repair).


As for the fluid, the shop I went to, since I can’t safely get my car in jacks right now, did it by volume displacement of what came out. When I first got it back it drove like the car was brand new.

I dont know if there was something specific about last night and now today it will be problem solved, or if this is a serious problem. I will say the weather it’s self and today at relatively cold, 10c average til like Tuesday. But I was up in the 3 and 4k range for about 20-30 minutes and the upper gears were driving smooth like it was all warmed up and I was going into second very nicely so I don’t really think that the outside weather has a huge impact at that point.

I have considered it could be a ball joint too. My friend swears he heard it from the wheel well area but that doesn’t explained why I felt it in the clutch pedal... or would I feel that in the clutch pedal? I’ve actually never had problems with ball joints before so I really don’t know if that’s something I might feel in the pedals or not. I also don’t hear any squeaking just that very abrasive sound, and the problem onset very rapidly without warning so I’m just not sure ball joint problems make sense or not.

I found this other forum thread that discusses a similar sounding problem to mine. Maybe not identical but I can’t ignore the similarities and someone with an Impreza down at the bottom claims solved from the arm below the shifter assembly not being lubricated properly, I think he’s saying, but idk that I would bet on that, as nice as the idea sounds that it would be as easy as getting some lubricant paste on it. https://www.subaruoutback.org/thread...t-gear.295313/

The last thing I have thought about is maybe a bearing going bad but again, also, would that only happen in first? And also, no whine...


Further update. Just drove the car for about 5 minutes and nothing now. I am getting a slight click feeling in first and second as I come off but no more ratcheting sound, still no slipping, and as I said it was never like a crunching gear grinding sound it was just a subtle kind of rhythmic ratcheting that would kinda on off on off on off and then stop around 3500 rpm or when I go to second but now nothing is happening except a slight click like I said. Could this be related to the bushings?

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by T_Squadrito

I don’t know what to make of it...

Ah... below 2 KRPM. It's just engine pulses kicking around all the rest of the uncoupled gears. A heavier flywheel would help but who wants that? You are now experiencing what you gave up in changing the fluid.


Perfectly normal. Gas it in third at 1500 RPM. Don't be afraid. Just get used to that sound. No harm.

[T_Squadrito]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

Ah... below 2 KRPM. It's just engine pulses kicking around all the rest of the uncoupled gears. A heavier flywheel would help but who wants that? You are now experiencing what you gave up in changing the fluid.


Perfectly normal. Gas it in third at 1500 RPM. Don't be afraid. Just get used to that sound. No harm.

That’s kind of what I figured but I didn’t want to assume anything because it was very sudden. If that wasn’t the suspicion I was gonna say I also notice about 1-2cm of free play on the shifter in neutral which I know loose play is Norma but it just felt like a lot. I’m used to my shifters snapping back to an exact spot and not being so wobbly so I don’t know if that’s normal for this car. Didn’t have that much in my Nissan or Honda’s. Just seems a little weird so I wasn’t sure if maybe it’s movement was preventing the shifter from sitting where it needs to naturally.

As long as I don’t need to fear first is crapping the bed

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by T_Squadrito

As long as I don’t need to fear first is crapping the bed

There is a big difference between one and two cm. Has the gearshift lever been removed? I don't remember reading that earlier.

[T_Squadrito]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

There is a big difference between one and two cm. Has the gearshift lever been removed? I don't remember reading that earlier.

Not by me. I will take a video later and post a link so you can see. I feel (key word feel) like it’s more than a cm, like it feel like a lot of play, but visually it doesn’t look quite like 2... it’s just weird. Like I said I’ll post a video later when I’m back downstairs.

[T_Squadrito]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

There is a big difference between one and two cm. Has the gearshift lever been removed? I don't remember reading that earlier.

Here is a video of the shifter play https://drive.google.com/file/d/1azC...ew?usp=sharing

On video it feels like a lot less play so maybe I am just tweaking, but I just checked my friends car who also has a honda and he has no play in neutral which is what I am used to. I measured out around 14mm of play. I measured from far right position of play to far left usng the gear notches on the knob to measure. Maybe my experience with 4 manual cars just isnt that extensive. There are a lot of cars and im no mechanic. Just seems a little crazy to me.