Possibly noob question from a not so noob manual driver

[T_Squadrito]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

I urge you to skip the spring. Swap out the slave cylinder. It's much easier than my DIY thread seems. I was just super detailed about it for the sake of the beginner. It is the only thing that truly addresses the issue.

The line is purely cosmetic in this case. I was new to forums at the time and didn't have the courage to decline well-intended input.

I'm on my third set of Primacys. Thanks, @humfrz!

im looking at it now. This is a really great point actually. This shouldnt affect the weight of the peddle much I wouldn’t think which is nice for NJ traffic. I see a lot of other people saying it returns the expected clutch feel. Is that more in the feedback department or just the expected weight and travel?

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by T_Squadrito

im looking at it now. This is a really great point actually. This shouldnt affect the weight of the peddle much I wouldn’t think which is nice for NJ traffic. I see a lot of other people saying it returns the expected clutch feel. Is that more in the feedback department or just the expected weight and travel?

It's proportional to the weight of the pedal so, yeah, as I state, the engagement arc is shorter and the pedal feels heavier. But with that returns the more classic feel of a nice sporty clutch. Changing or removing the spring just makes the pedal heavier but it doesn't shorten the arc. Leave the spring installed, swap the cylinder, and lower the pedal a smidge.

Also, the stock clutch still doesn't fully engage until nearly at the top of travel because its load rating was intentionally matched to the load capacity of the transmission. It's supposed to let go before the gearbox does. I cringe whenever I read about people "upgrading" their clutches. Don't do it.

[T_Squadrito]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

It's proportional to the weight of the pedal so, yeah, as I state, the engagement arc is shorter and the pedal feels heavier. But with that returns the more classic feel of a nice sporty clutch. Changing or removing the spring just makes the pedal heavier but it doesn't shorten the arc. Leave the spring installed, swap the cylinder, and lower the pedal a smidge.

Also, the stock clutch still doesn't fully engage until nearly at the top of travel because its load rating was intentionally matched to the load capacity of the transmission. It's supposed to let go before the gearbox does. I cringe whenever I read about people "upgrading" their clutches. Don't do it.

given that I dont take my cars to the track, I have no desire for the level of comitment involved in upgrading the clutch, nor the 100lb pedal in stop and go. In fact, I am incredibly happy that the fly wheel seems to be in pretty good shape because I dont even want to think about dropping the tranny nor paying someone to do it. Only thing that worrys me is how slow I have to back in in reverse because the gear ratio is all wrong. If I try to go a normal speed I slip... a lot... you smell it. You have to be super gentle in reverse to a degree that almost feels unreasonable. Just today I was in a hurry to back in and rode the clutch just the SLIGHTest bit to back in quickly without skyrocketing to 35 and I immediately smelt it. 0 forgiveness in reverse in this car.

[Capt Spaulding]

Originally Posted by T_Squadrito

given that I dont take my cars to the track, I have no desire for the level of comitment involved in upgrading the clutch, nor the 100lb pedal in stop and go. In fact, I am incredibly happy that the fly wheel seems to be in pretty good shape because I dont even want to think about dropping the tranny nor paying someone to do it. Only thing that worrys me is how slow I have to back in in reverse because the gear ratio is all wrong. If I try to go a normal speed I slip... a lot... you smell it. You have to be super gentle in reverse to a degree that almost feels unreasonable. Just today I was in a hurry to back in and rode the clutch just the SLIGHTest bit to back in quickly without skyrocketing to 35 and I immediately smelt it. 0 forgiveness in reverse in this car.

I haven't driven a car with the replacement slave cylinder, but I have run mine stock, with the MTEC replacement spring, and without a spring. I'm happy with either the MTEC or w/o the spring. Right now it has the MTEC in it because I didn't feel like pulling it out after comparing it with the spring removed. As I note, I'm happy either way. Knowing what I know now, I'd just pull the spring and leave it. I've considered the slave cylinder, but for now, I'm pretty unmotivated.

As to your reverse problem: I don't know how much experience you have driving standard gearboxes. On everything I have ever driven with one you can get the clutch engaged in 1st (most times in 2nd) and reverse without using the accelerator. Practice getting the car rolling in reverse with the engine at idle. You won't damage the clutch doing this. I've taught a number of new drivers using this technique and none has managed to hurt any of my clutches.

Once you can do this work on throttle modulation. It is not hard to control this car in reverse. It helps a lot to have a sensitive foot on the accelerator. You can train that.

[T_Squadrito]

Originally Posted by Capt Spaulding

I haven't driven a car with the replacement slave cylinder, but I have run mine stock, with the MTEC replacement spring, and without a spring. I'm happy with either the MTEC or w/o the spring. Right now it has the MTEC in it because I didn't feel like pulling it out after comparing it with the spring removed. As I note, I'm happy either way. Knowing what I know now, I'd just pull the spring and leave it. I've considered the slave cylinder, but for now, I'm pretty unmotivated.

As to your reverse problem: I don't know how much experience you have driving standard gearboxes. On everything I have ever driven with one you can get the clutch engaged in 1st (most times in 2nd) and reverse without using the accelerator. Practice getting the car rolling in reverse with the engine at idle. You won't damage the clutch doing this. I've taught a number of new drivers using this technique and none has managed to hurt any of my clutches.

Once you can do this work on throttle modulation. It is not hard to control this car in reverse. It helps a lot to have a sensitive foot on the accelerator. You can train that.

Learned on standard and been driving them for over 16 years. Not a long time in the grand scheme but I’ve done over 400,000 just on manuals cumulative. Yeah I can get the car to roll with no gas but (don’t take my passive aggression as being rude, I’m just a sarcastic person mostly out of amusement) I don’t know if you’ve ever seen north New Jersey roads but those “your tax dollars at work” signs must have been installed a long time ago cuz they certainly are t doing anything about the crooked broken streets, axle breaking potholes, and alignment destroying parking lots. Avery thing is lumpy and uneven and you WILL fall in something. Rolling backwards with no gas is actually doable a) when I have 20+ seconds to get in the spot because yea the road is that bad and b) if it’s perfectly flat. At my apartment (back to my comment about embossed bricks in our parking lot) the texture is actually too deep to roll at all. Please trust I roll off the clutch so slow that I can feel it engage with the terrible spring and it just starts puttering out. I will add also, my 1990 something Honda Accord could do this fine on lumpy roads but it also had a very different ratio that didn’t require as much if any gas. Top speed in reverse was MAYBE 10 mph but on my brz... man this thing goes. I went to an empty parking lot to find out and if I stopped trying once I was going as fast in reverse as I can in first. It’s stupid fast in reverse and I’m not the first to complain about reverse difficulty on hills and such in a brz. Anything more then 1700 initial rpms before letting off and your slipping in reverse, which is a problem if you are on a slanted driveway or parking area. Lastly, I will say, I can roll in first without gassing but not as easily in reverse. Reverse feels like second. It’s like the gear is too big. I get moving on flat without the gas all the time especially as we are inching forward since NJ drivers can’t stand gaps and will honk even if you’re still stuck at the red... it’s very useful for that. But as a whole, reverse is just not fun yet

[Capt Spaulding]

OK. Had to ask. Not sure what to suggest. Reverse is a little tall, to be sure. I seldom back up hill, but when that's needed, the car seems happy to oblige. I have no idea what the revs are while doing this, I'm looking out the back window or in the mirrors. lol. You'll master it - just takes practice.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by T_Squadrito

given that I dont take my cars to the track, I have no desire for the level of comitment involved in upgrading the clutch, nor the 100lb pedal in stop and go. In fact, I am incredibly happy that the fly wheel seems to be in pretty good shape because I dont even want to think about dropping the tranny nor paying someone to do it. Only thing that worrys me is how slow I have to back in in reverse because the gear ratio is all wrong. If I try to go a normal speed I slip... a lot... you smell it. You have to be super gentle in reverse to a degree that almost feels unreasonable. Just today I was in a hurry to back in and rode the clutch just the SLIGHTest bit to back in quickly without skyrocketing to 35 and I immediately smelt it. 0 forgiveness in reverse in this car.

You're my target market. My main beef with the clutch is how the long throw makes it hard to feather. Changing the spring doesn't do anything for that. Very few people understand the nuance. People call it feedback but it's not really that. It's that the range of pedal travel is too long between clutch-just-touching and fully-engaged. It has nothing to do with pedal weight.

[T_Squadrito]

Originally Posted by Capt Spaulding

OK. Had to ask. Not sure what to suggest. Reverse is a little tall, to be sure. I seldom back up hill, but when that's needed, the car seems happy to oblige. I have no idea what the revs are while doing this, I'm looking out the back window or in the mirrors. lol. You'll master it - just takes practice.

yeah usually I am fine. When they say speed kills, they were talking about the GT86s' flywheel in reverse. haha. No, I am sure it is possible, and the car is still breaking me in. I am sure practice will help a bit but there is literally milimeters on the clutch if not less for me that makes the difference between me flying backwards and smelling it and going snail pace. It is very binary. I thought for a while it was me, and I am a lot better now over the last couple days. This car does drive very different than my old cars, and I AM about a year out of practice, however... I feel pretty confident now and it really is touchy. Reverse is a bit psychotic IMO

to add.... up a hill backwards? oh the car will oblige alright... it would be happy to go right up that hill backwards 0- 25mph in 0.00000000123876 seconds at only 2500 RPM if I let it. lol

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

You're my target market. My main beef with the clutch is how the long throw makes it hard to feather. Changing the spring doesn't do anything for that. Very few people understand the nuance. People call it feedback but it's not really that. It's that the range of pedal travel is too long between clutch-just-touching and fully-engaged. It has nothing to do with pedal weight.

Yeah I will say I DID find where it is engaging and it is like an inch in and the engagement doesnt feel very smooth and linear. It feels more like nothing... nothing... (slightly touches pedal) noth...no...nothing? Maybe...? op and now its burning... ok.... LOL Like, I find myself just searching the pedal up and down the depth of depression to figure out what it is doing. I am so used to feeling a distinct moment where I make contact, and a moment where I am grabbing, and can easily tell when I am going to slip LOOOONG before I begin slipping, all within a matter of one fluid press of the pedal. I ocasionally find myself sitting in a parking lot trying to figure out what I am feeling with this pedal. Love the car but that is my main complaint. And.... and.... once I try this out, I am curious if this will make the feel of reverse any easier. Maybe I will be able to understand what the car is telling me a little better.

My dad first started teaching me to drive when I was like 13 or 14 years old on private property so late by some enthusiests standards but early by many others. He wouldnt let me look at the RPMs or listen and I learned by feeling what the gas and clutch pedal were doing. Ask me to learn that way on this car and I would have thrown the car out as fast as I got it and just got an automatic.

[churchx]

Originally Posted by T_Squadrito

I am sure practice will help a bit but there is literally milimeters on the clutch if not less for me that makes the difference between me flying backwards and smelling it and going snail pace. It is very binary.

Is the clutch stock? One may find a bit harder to feel stock clutch bite point, but i certainly don't remember it being that hard to modulate, just watched a bit more tachometer fluctuations during familiarization phase or slipped a bit more, gave a bit more gas, but certainly not to smelling burnt clutch point. But see probable aftermarket clutch of high rated torque but hard to modulate precisely, which might be common if car is bought used, and not everything been returned to stock and previous owner hasn't listed all the mods done. (there is reason, why unmoded cars often have higher resale value)

[T_Squadrito]

Originally Posted by churchx

Is the clutch stock? One may find a bit harder to feel stock clutch bite point, but i certainly don't remember it being that hard to modulate, just watched a bit more tachometer fluctuations during familiarization phase or slipped a bit more, gave a bit more gas, but certainly not to smelling burnt clutch point. But see probable aftermarket clutch of high rated torque but hard to modulate precisely, which might be common if car is bought used, and not everything been returned to stock and previous owner hasn't listed all the mods done. (there is reason, why unmoded cars often have higher resale value)

I genuinely have no clue. I am assuming so. I have no evidence otherwise. I might just suck in reverse still... Its possible... but it is so touchy that I am not sure its something I really want to practice lol. It only happens in reverse, not 1, 2, and now with the new fluid, no longer in 3... etc, so I dont think the flywheel is going bad. Seems to grab fine. I will say hills from a stand still are still a sore spot in first but I think thats just me trying to figure out where its biting still because I really genuinely cant feel where its biting. As forementioned, I am used to feeling a tight grab, almost like my clutch pedal just, well, grabbed something, but with this its silky to a fault and is a bit hit or miss but I have a much larger safe area still in first than I do reverse.

Granted, just because the clutch seems to be stock, doesnt mean nobody ever took the car to a half rate mechanic to "fix" reverse because it broke and ended up getting a half rate fix, but the carfax doesnt suggest that... then again... the carfax is pretty much just routine maintainance down the board and seriously, they were not doing oil changes, so I guess thats not included in routine maintainance. The car was brought up to the dealer I bought the car from from florida though, and I lived in florida long enough to know that anything can happen down there. Only clutch I ever killed happened in FL. Terrible clutch on a terrible car at 130k miles and I just got back from an 18h long road trip and then the mechanic looked at me and said I was racing... I laughed and was like, you clearly dont know me. I barely go 10 over at best and its useless trying to peal out in the thing because it was 110hp. Im like, yes I hotrod my lawn mower. All this is to say... knowing florida... a lot could have been done or not done that was never documented

[Capt Spaulding]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

You're my target market. My main beef with the clutch is how the long throw makes it hard to feather. Changing the spring doesn't do anything for that. Very few people understand the nuance. People call it feedback but it's not really that. It's that the range of pedal travel is too long between clutch-just-touching and fully-engaged. It has nothing to do with pedal weight.

Lol. A wider friction zone would be a blessing. on some cars and motorcycles. Back when stds were the norm (cue humfrz tractor meme), i recall more than a few lightswitch clutches. Apparently Subayota went too far trying to make the car easier for noobs.

This does make the slave cylinder swap sound more interesting, though.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by Capt Spaulding

Lol. A wider friction zone would be a blessing. on some cars and motorcycles. Back when stds were the norm (cue humfrz tractor meme), i recall more than a few lightswitch clutches. Apparently Subayota went too far trying to make the car easier for noobs.

This does make the slave cylinder swap sound more interesting, though.

Right? There are a few factors at play. Leverage is the easy one to tweak. Stiffness and hysteresis are less addressable.

[Capt Spaulding]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

Right? There are a few factors at play. Leverage is the easy one to tweak. Stiffness and hysteresis are less addressable.

If the slave cylinder has a smaller piston it's going to travel farther for a given master cylinder travel - Right? Do you think there's any chance of the slave over traveling?

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by Capt Spaulding

If the slave cylinder has a smaller piston it's going to travel farther for a given master cylinder travel - Right? Do you think there's any chance of the slave over traveling?

I do. That's why familiarity with clutch throw adjustment is also important. The slave is not at issue. The TOB can get hung up if it goes too far. I touch on that in the thread.