Eliminating torque dip

[BrahmaBull1990]

Originally Posted by gen3v8

I said 15-20% My glass is half full @ 15% your glass is unfortunately half empty @15%. 15% of 205 would only make it 230

Originally Posted by Dzmitry

If we're going to do number calculations, it would actually be ~236 - and that doesn't change what I said, as a whopping 30HP gain is extremely unlikely on just a header and tune. You might be looking at around 10 for a typical off the shelf tune and maybe up to 15 from a solid revised E-tune. 15HP is a little over 7%.

I'm not here to pick a fight with ya, just saying that you shouldn't expect or give others expectations of those kind of gains. I bought what is known as one of the best headers on the market for this platform along with a cat-back. I also got Ecutek and a few revisions from one of the best tuners for this platform on the east coast. I even went to his dyno later on for the hell of it to get the experience and wring out a few extra ponies. End result was 178whp. Though I never got a baseline, I certainly don't believe I ever gained anything close to 30HP. It feels stronger up top, but not by much.. Keep in mind, too, that I went above and beyond what the majority of people here would do.

@9 minutes. They dyno'd stock and with headers+tune. Ignore the click-bait title, but they did make good gains.

Maybe we have a middle ground?

[RToyo86]

15-20whp gain is seems doable with a good tune and a catless header. For peak numbers to matter you need a baseline to compare it too. Some cars baseline as low as 145-150whp on certain dynos, others as high as 170whp.

All that matters is the spread to me. A high reading dyno looks good on paper when you show it to someone.

[RToyo86]

Originally Posted by BrahmaBull1990

@9 minutes. They dyno'd stock and with headers+tune. Ignore the click-bait title, but they did make good gains.

Maybe we have a middle ground?

That's also with the header already installed but untuned.
The difference probably would have been even larger if it was bone stock.

[Dzmitry]

Originally Posted by BrahmaBull1990

@9 minutes. They dyno'd stock and with headers+tune. Ignore the click-bait title, but they did make good gains.

Maybe we have a middle ground?

Again, I'm not saying it's not obtainable, there are certainly manufacturers that have claimed such gains, and proved it with their dyno's. They just don't reflect the majority unfortunately. Also, this is again beyond what most folks actually do, which is taking it to a dyno as it costs a pretty penny. An off the shelf tune is probably the biggest seller for this platform. A couple things to note with this as well - This is a 2013 model, 200 vs 205 HP, more gains to be had than the facelift. And then as stated above, the base was with the header on, which has proved multiple times to give some minor gains without a tune.

EDIT: Got myself mixed up, the header already on could side with getting even more gains over stock.

[BrahmaBull1990]

Originally Posted by RToyo86

That's also with the header already installed but untuned.
The difference probably would have been even larger if it was bone stock.

I mis-spoke. Another video had their stock dyno-run, but at the end they have a chart up of a stock dyno-run for comparison (just not this exact car).

[BrahmaBull1990]

Originally Posted by Dzmitry

Again, I'm not saying it's not obtainable, there are certainly manufacturers that have claimed such gains, and proved it with their dyno's. They just don't reflect the majority unfortunately. Also, this is again beyond what most folks actually do, which is taking it to a dyno as it costs a pretty penny. An off the shelf tune is probably the biggest seller for this platform. A couple things to note with this as well - This is a 2013 model, 200 vs 205 HP, more gains to be had than the facelift. It's older and used, stock header cat could be a bit beat up and would result in lower stock numbers. And then as stated above, the base was with the header on, which has proved multiple times to give some minor gains without a tune.

I thought that 5 ponnies was from the updated stock intake maifold, etc, which was never upgraded on this car? So the percentage increase would be the same, just a lower trough to peak, if you will, on the 2013. Would the degradation in performance be that noticeable on the baseline numbers, assuming the car does not have 150k miles on? (genuinely do not know)

[Dzmitry]

Originally Posted by BrahmaBull1990

I thought that 5 ponnies was from the updated stock intake maifold, etc, which was never upgraded on this car? So the percentage increase would be the same, just a lower trough to peak, if you will, on the 2013. Would the degradation in performance be that noticeable on the baseline numbers, assuming the car does not have 150k miles on? (genuinely do not know)

Not quite. Though what you say is true, the HP was gained from the additional tune-up, if you do a little research on how this affected peoples gains, you will find that it diminishes. In simpler words, lets say the peak power people achieve with the 2013 is about 200 whp. The same thing applies for the 2017+ models, it is still about 200 whp. So you don't get an extra 5 up top for owning the later models, the gains are lessened.

Why is that? Simple, because of exactly how this conversation began, the engine is already near its peak. There is only so much you can do to it.

[Dzmitry]

Originally Posted by BrahmaBull1990

I thought that 5 ponnies was from the updated stock intake maifold, etc, which was never upgraded on this car? So the percentage increase would be the same, just a lower trough to peak, if you will, on the 2013. Would the degradation in performance be that noticeable on the baseline numbers, assuming the car does not have 150k miles on? (genuinely do not know)

And to answer your other question, it can be, it just depends. A clogged cat or a very dirty air filter, or crap built up in the engine, and plenty more can all have affects on your output. I have seen some dyno's where gains seem way too good to be true. But when you look into them, you notice things like the peak power dropping off earlier than normal, etc. This likely means the base car already had some kind of an issue before the mod, and the mod may have resolved it as well as provided gains.

[BrahmaBull1990]

Originally Posted by Dzmitry

Not quite. Though what you say is true, the HP was gained from the additional tune-up, if you do a little research on how this affected peoples gains, you will find that it diminishes. In simpler words, lets say the peak power people achieve with the 2013 is about 200 whp. The same thing applies for the 2017+ models, it is still about 200 whp. So you don't get an extra 5 up top for owning the later models, the gains are lessened.

Why is that? Simple, because of exactly how this conversation began, the engine is already near its peak. There is only so much you can do to it.

This makes sense! The ceiling is the ceiling...the 2017+ models just have a head start. Gotcha! Thank you

[RToyo86]

Originally Posted by BrahmaBull1990

I thought that 5 ponnies was from the updated stock intake maifold, etc, which was never upgraded on this car? So the percentage increase would be the same, just a lower trough to peak, if you will, on the 2013. Would the degradation in performance be that noticeable on the baseline numbers, assuming the car does not have 150k miles on? (genuinely do not know)

They made a bunch of small changes but most seem to be reliability/livability improvements.
The factory tune and the updated factory header are the big changes on 17+ cars. It has larger runners compared to the older design, similar to aftermarket headers. But it still retains the same huge restrictive cat. There is a thread buried somewhere indicating the differences.


Once aftermarket parts are thrown on I don't think anyone has been able to provide a measurable difference between the revised engine and the old one.


There is a build thread with custom tuning done on a stock decatted 17+ header and front pipe which showed comparable gains to most aftermarket catless setups.

[Dzmitry]

Originally Posted by RToyo86

They made a bunch of small changes but most seem to be reliability/livability improvements.
The factory tune and the updated factory header are the big changes on 17+ cars. It has larger runners compared to the older design, similar to aftermarket headers. But it still retains the same huge restrictive cat. There is a thread buried somewhere indicating the differences.


Once aftermarket parts are thrown on I don't think anyone has been able to provide a measurable difference between the revised engine and the old one.


There is a build thread with custom tuning done on a stock decatted 17+ header and front pipe which showed comparable gains to most aftermarket catless setups.

https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133311
The dyno is on the first page a bit down.

[gen3v8]

Originally Posted by Dzmitry

If we're going to do number calculations, it would actually be ~236 - and that doesn't change what I said, as a whopping 30HP gain is extremely unlikely on just a header and tune. You might be looking at around 10 for a typical off the shelf tune and maybe up to 15 from a solid revised E-tune. 15HP is a little over 7%.

I'm not here to pick a fight with ya, just saying that you shouldn't expect or give others expectations of those kind of gains. I bought what is known as one of the best headers on the market for this platform along with a cat-back. I also got Ecutek and a few revisions from one of the best tuners for this platform on the east coast. I even went to his dyno later on for the hell of it to get the experience and wring out a few extra ponies. End result was 178whp. Though I never got a baseline, I certainly don't believe I ever gained anything close to 30HP. It feels stronger up top, but not by much.. Keep in mind, too, that I went above and beyond what the majority of people here would do.

All good mt friend, Just to remind you crank hp gains versus whp are different whp being lower but the % is the same.

Pulse Racing have a Happy Dyno. They boast big numbers and do good work and their dyno like all dynos is a tuning tool. I had one of my cars(turbo) done by them it came back @ 212Wkw. I went to a dyno day and it made 187wkw which was good on the day compared to others of similar mods. Baseline on the day was 130+-140+ wkw stock.

[sygfrid]

Originally Posted by BitusB

Is it necessary to swap out stock header to address torque dip or can a tune alone do the trick? I prefer to have a cat for sound and environmental reasons.

I also had the same environmental concern & opted for catted aftermarket one. This is the setup I did for my old FRS that completely removed the dip while having earlier pull at around 3.3k rpm via Crawford BPB

FT86 Speed Factory UEL, catted
Crawford Billet Power Block (BPB)/Intake Manifold Spacer
OFT w/ Crawford BPB Tune


To further reduce my environmental impact, I take the electric to work & only used the car on weekends or short trips to Costco.