An inconvenient Truth

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by WingsofWar

meh...but the 80s for motorsports was God-teir era.

And the tech/knowledge trickled down to the 90s production models?

[WingsofWar]

Originally Posted by OldSkoolToys

@wings, it wasn't an SA, it was an FB ('85 MY) =P
@Dimm, 80's Toyota pickup, I could list more...but those pickups are absolute work horses. The 22R is not to be trifled with.

oh its the FB in the states...i forgot.

Toyota Pickup....can survive a direct hit from a RPG.

[Maxim]

Originally Posted by Aki

I don't think you quite grasp the meaning of "spirit" then.

Spirit isn't defined by numerical specs, whether it uses double-wishbone, multi-link or mac struts. Or power output. A car doesn't all of a sudden have "spirit" when it weights under 2600 lbs. Nor does it have spirit by virtue of being fast.

Spirit is defined by the focus of the car. With the AE86, that spirit is it being lightweight, FR, and emphasizing balanced dynamics over brute power. Those are all abstractions, not solid numerical values. In 2011, "light weight" means a car around 2800 lbs and under. Those numerical interpretations of the abstract principles change over time, but not the principle itself.

Originally Posted by ToyotaObsession

I don't think you get what capturing the Spirit of the AE86 means. The latest generation of Mustangs is different than the last Generation, but it has the same spirit. Going all the way back to the original Pony Cars.

Technology breeds better cars, but they usually try to capture the spirit of the previous generations. Of course mistakes can be made lol. Just look at some of the Mustangs of the late 70's.

If it's a driver's car then it's captured the spirit. Of course this thread is kind of useless until it goes into production. We can bench race till our heads explode. But till rubber meets pavement it's a moot point.

No....I know exactly what "capturing the spirit" means....to me.

The point of the thread is that whether this vehicle does so is entirely subjective, and it's going to vary from person to person. There's no way to objectively measure "spirit."

I suspect there will be a whole lot of disagreement on the subject once the car is released. Just like any fanbase. You can watch the same thing happen for movies, or games, or anything else. When something old is made new, moved to a new medium, etc, some people like it and some people scream bloody murder that it's been ruined...and they're all talking about the same product.

An example of this: The new Camaro. It handles, accelerates, and brakes better than any Camaro in the past. It handily outperforms every previous-gen Camaro on every objective measure.

But visit a Camaro forum and you can see there's a massive divide in opinion about the car. It's overweight. Some people have latched on to this fact and are extremely disappointed with the vehicle. Others look at the objective measures, compare them to past objective measure, and note that the refinement and feel of the car is vastly improved as well - and they are very happy with the car.

Does the new Camaro have the spirit of the old? That depends entirely on how you define spirit. Camaros have been everything from drag cars to stellar road-racers in the past...and the new Camaro dominates any previous-gen one in both acceleration and handling, despite it's weight. Still it's not enough for some....I know that the weight figure is the reason I don't currently own one. The argument can be made for success or failure. You can argue that the car succeeds, with performance, feel, and looks that out-do any previous camaro, and you can argue that it's grown far too large and heavy even if the performance targets were met.

We are going to see similar reactions with the FT-86. Some will drive it, and say wow this thing feels great, it handles awesome and it's pretty zippy. Some people will note that it weighs close to 2800lbs and automatically be disappointed. Some people will think that it doesn't feel as good as it should even if they like the objective results. Some people will look at the engine red-line and be disappointed (or pleased). And everybody will have a different definition of what the "spirit" should have been and how the target was either missed, or hit dead center.

[Aki]

Originally Posted by Dimman

80's weren't exactly a shining example of automotive excellence for any manufacturer...

Think lots great cars came out of the 80s. The FJ60 Land Cruiser was awesome. E30 M3, 89 Nissan Skyline R32 GTR, Nissan U12 Bluebird SSS Atessa, Honda CRX Si, Toyota Hilux, naming some off the top of my head.

Originally Posted by Maxim

An example of this: The new Camaro. It handles, accelerates, and brakes better than any Camaro in the past. It handily outperforms every previous-gen Camaro on every objective measure.

But visit a Camaro forum and you can see there's a massive divide in opinion about the car. It's overweight. Some people have latched on to this fact and are extremely disappointed with the vehicle.

But "overweight" would be a ridiculous criticism to have for the Camaro when comparing it with the original. The new Camaro is largely inspired from the 1969 Camaro, which weighed in at 3700 lbs--pretty much the same as the newest one. Camaro was never light from its inception. It didn't all of sudden bloat up for the newest one.

[Maxim]

Originally Posted by WingsofWar

Toyota Pickup....can survive a direct hit from a RPG.

lol.

Sorry, I had to comment on this.

I can say from personal experience that no....a Toyota Pickup cannot survive a direct hit from an RPG. Other things it cannot survive: single shots from a .50 cal, landmines, being rolled off a cliff, 4 foot deep rivers, small rodent infestations, being forced to carry 25 people at once for any extended period of time, hellfire missile, artillery, F-15E's....the list goes on.

The Hilux is an absolutely great truck, but it's not designed to be blown up.

[Maxim]

Originally Posted by Aki

Think lots great cars came out of the 80s. The FJ60 Land Cruiser was awesome. E30 M3, 89 Nissan Skyline R32 GTR, Nissan U12 Bluebird SSS Atessa, Honda CRX Si, Toyota Hilux, naming some off the top of my head.




But "overweight" would be a ridiculous criticism to have for the Camaro when comparing it with the original. The new Camaro is largely inspired from the 1969 Camaro, which weighed in at 3700 lbs--pretty much the same as the newest one. Camaro was never light from its inception. It didn't all of sudden bloat up for the newest one.

Incorrect. Here is a graph comparing weights of V-8 Camaros from each model year. These stats are only for the small-block V8 versions, and do not include versions of the Camaro sold with the extremely heavy big-block V8s (those were 200-300 pounds heavier)



The original camaro weighed about the same as an RX-8. In fact, the "bloated" reputation of the Camaro was almost entirely earned in the 1970s (when the big-block V8 was at it's most popular). One of my favorite things to note about it is an un-released statistic from GM itself: The last few models years of the 4th gen z/28 Camaro were faster around GM's proving grounds than the C5 Corvette. GM didn't release the info for obvious reasons..

There's a strong push in the Camaro community right now for a "true" Z/28 successor. The original Z/28 was an homoglomation special...designed and released solely to allow the Camaro to compete in a certain race series. It had a completely different 7000+ RPM V-8, weighed much less than normal, and had a road-race tuned suspension with different components. The Z/28 name became over-used after that....it should have stayed a special edition, like the BOSS mustang. GM is currently working on a Camaro alternative to the Ford BOSS mustang...and it's supposedly going to be called the Z/28. (the new, supercharged Camaro was named the ZL-1 because the Z/28 name was being reserved for a special edition as GM knew about what Ford was doing with the new BOSS)


As you can see, things quickly get complicated when discussing things like this. It's going to cause a major issue when the final stats for the FT-86 are released, and even more controversy when people get to drive it....regardless of whether it's "good" or "bad."

[WingsofWar]

Originally Posted by Maxim

lol.

Sorry, I had to comment on this.

I can say from personal experience that no....a Toyota Pickup cannot survive a direct hit from an RPG. Other things it cannot survive: single shots from a .50 cal, landmines, being rolled off a cliff, 4 foot deep rivers, small rodent infestations, being forced to carry 25 people at once for any extended period of time, hellfire missile, artillery, F-15E's....the list goes on.

The Hilux is an absolutely great truck, but it's not designed to be blown up.

im going to have to disagree...i saw once a Toyota pickup drive into the pits of Mordor and survive a hellish onslaught. and im pretty sure if we launch a Toyota Pickup truck into a black hole....the black whole will explode into infinity.

I believe the only thing that can truly take down a Toyota Pickup truck is a Chuck Norris roundhouse

[Maxim]

Originally Posted by WingsofWar

im going to have to disagree...i saw once a Toyota pickup drive into the pits of Mordor and survive a hellish onslaught. and im pretty sure if we launch a Toyota Pickup truck into a black hole....the black whole will explode into infinity.

I believe the only thing that can truly take down a Toyota Pickup truck is a Chuck Norris roundhouse

lol

My commander has a signed photo of Chuck hanging in his office....so even if what you say is true, we can still probably pull some strings and bring the pain

[ToyotaObsession]

Originally Posted by Dimman

80's weren't exactly a shining example of automotive excellence for any manufacturer...

1985 Toyota 4Runner. Off road truck of the year. Still a badass truck to wheel.

[OldSkoolToys]

Originally Posted by Maxim

lol.

Sorry, I had to comment on this.

I can say from personal experience that no....a Toyota Pickup cannot survive a direct hit from an RPG. Other things it cannot survive: single shots from a .50 cal, landmines, being rolled off a cliff, 4 foot deep rivers, small rodent infestations, being forced to carry 25 people at once for any extended period of time, hellfire missile, artillery, F-15E's....the list goes on.

The Hilux is an absolutely great truck, but it's not designed to be blown up.

[u2b]xnWKz7Cthkk[/u2b]

[Maxim]

Originally Posted by OldSkoolToys

[u2b]xnWKz7Cthkk[/u2b]

Hahaha. That's great. I watched all 3 parts...leaving it in the sea for hours, dropping a trailer on it, hitting it (gently) with a wrecking ball, setting it on fire, and then putting it on top of a building and collapsing the building....insane.

The RPG still would have wrecked it with the first shot. I've SEEN it.

[Random_Art]

haha.... My first vehicle was one of those trucks, a 1987 I think. The most reliable thing I ever drove. We (my family collectively) bought it brand new, put over 270k miles on it with only basic maintenance needed. We ended up selling it for $250 to Jorge who drove it from Detroit to Guatemala. I half expect that it's probably taking place in some drug war right now.

[Aki]

As much as I love the Hilux, pretty sure an RPG would destroy a Hilux. Great engineering though.

Originally Posted by Maxim

Incorrect. Here is a graph comparing weights of V-8 Camaros from each model year. These stats are only for the small-block V8 versions, and do not include versions of the Camaro sold with the extremely heavy big-block V8s (those were 200-300 pounds heavier)

But that graph is off. A small block V8 '69 does not weigh just over 3000 lbs, that's insane. As per Jim Osborn, the small-block weighs 3145 lbs, add a couple hundred more for the bigger block V8. Either way, 3000+ lbs is pretty heavy for a car that didn't have all the safety features/crash compliant reinforcement there is today.

Since the Camaro was never a light car to begin with, the spirit of the car isn't it being lightweight. Yes, I think the new Camaro is too heavy, but it's still in line with the original imo. Neither are exactly Miatas.

[RRnold]

Originally Posted by SteelReign

I think its more like a new car from Toyota that uses the AE86 as inspiration. Lightweight, modest power, balanced and (hopefully) practical for a 2-door coupe/hatch. I always like to say this car isn't going to be a true successor because a true successor would basically be a rear-drive 2-door 2012 Corolla. I think its going to be more focused than that.

Inspired is a much better term!

Originally Posted by 4agze

This car resembles when Toyota makes cars with soul, Its is far from perfect but if you are serious about driving, no holds bar pushing, no ABS, no traction control, no speed limiter & fighting every corner this is the one for you.

Originally Posted by OldSkoolToys

@Dimm, 80's Toyota pickup, I could list more...but those pickups are absolute work horses. The 22R is not to be trifled with.

Originally Posted by ToyotaObsession

1985 Toyota 4Runner. Off road truck of the year. Still a badass truck to wheel.

Oh hell yeah! It sucks they got rid of the front solid axle in the 4th gen but the 80's Toyota trucks were bad ass! I had an '88 SR5

You guys remember this! The first time I saw this ad was in the National Geographic mag!