An inconvenient Truth

[ToyotaObsession]

Originally Posted by Maxim

This post has nothing to do with that absolute waste of time "movie" which was designed to create a platform for politicians to try and win votes.

It's just the perfect thread title for an issue that I haven't seen much discussion on.

I hear about the "spirit" of the car, and all the idol worship of the original AE-86 (which I have not driven), and I think that's good. It means y'all are enthusiasts.

However...this car is not going to be that car. It's not going to feel like that car. It's not going to sound like that car. It's not going to HANDLE like that car. It simply isn't going to do any of these things, because every single piece of the car is different technologically and the process for mass production of vehicles, and the materials used in them, has changed dramatically since the AE-86.

It's going to weigh many hundreds of pounds more, it's going to have different suspension geometry, different tires sizes, different levels of outward vision, more power, different weight distribution, and it's going to be a modern car. It's going to feel totally different. This is a fact.

So, with so many people so enthused about the original car and the feel and spirit of it...how are you going to evaluate this one? How will you decide if it's "got it" ? The car is just going to be so completely different that I don't really know what "metric" people will use to compare it.

This thread was not meant to incite a riot or anger anybody...it's just a good topic for discussion since the issue is closely related to why most of you guys are interested in the vehicle in the first place.

So....discuss!

I don't think you get what capturing the Spirit of the AE86 means. The latest generation of Mustangs is different than the last Generation, but it has the same spirit. Going all the way back to the original Pony Cars.

Technology breeds better cars, but they usually try to capture the spirit of the previous generations. Of course mistakes can be made lol. Just look at some of the Mustangs of the late 70's.

If it's a driver's car then it's captured the spirit. Of course this thread is kind of useless until it goes into production. We can bench race till our heads explode. But till rubber meets pavement it's a moot point.

[WingsofWar]

^ i don't think its necessarily moot or a useless thread even if the car hasn't been released yet. Even the prototype is looking pretty good on the ring.

Based on our own experiences in cars im pretty sure we all can gauge what kind of car it is. Of course if we don't have those driving experiences...and for the sake of the thread..if we have not driven the AE86 before..it will be difficult to gauge the kind of car that could come out, but not impossible.

[4agze]

Originally Posted by cyde01

i have driven an ae in the parking lot but haven't spent enough time with it to really have a good feel for how it drives. but given what we know about the ft it should be a rather different experience. the extra power to push you through a corner should make a world of difference. and having IRS should improve grip in the rear significantly, although i guess there is a certain appeal to having a solid rear axle for old school drift guys.

I guess I'll be the first AE86 driver that will replay to this topic, From what we know about FT86 right now, the balance, NA low power rev happy engine, affordable price (hope its right) & light weight (most important), yes that's what makes the AE86 a different car. For people who wants more power out of this FT86 remember AE86 never rely on power its 1.6liter 4age motor only had 103lb-ft. To me AE86 is a teaching car, this car is an adventure to my youthful years, my passion on engineering and style. This car resembles when Toyota makes cars with soul, Its is far from perfect but if you are serious about driving, no holds bar pushing, no ABS, no traction control, no speed limiter & fighting every corner this is the one for you.

What I expect for FT86 is to extend what I learned from my AE86 and refine it
make me better as a driver & tuner, pass that to my kids make them better than me.

[ToyotaObsession]

Originally Posted by WingsofWar

^ i don't think its necessarily moot or a useless thread even if the car hasn't been released yet. Even the prototype is looking pretty good on the ring.

Based on our own experiences in cars im pretty sure we all can gauge what kind of car it is. Of course if we don't have those driving experiences...and for the sake of the thread..if we have not driven the AE86 before..it will be difficult to gauge the kind of car that could come out, but not impossible.

Have you ever eaten something that looks delicious but tasted horrible? Or conversely looked horrible but tasted divine?

The only thing you can glean from looks is just that looks. Looking at prototypes won't tell you a damn thing about how it feels when you drive it. Even statistics like Lateral G's and Horsepower won't impart how much road feel you'll get through the steering wheel or how well it shifts.

[OldSkoolToys]

Originally Posted by Maxim

So, with so many people so enthused about the original car and the feel and spirit of it...how are you going to evaluate this one? How will you decide if it's "got it" ? The car is just going to be so completely different that I don't really know what "metric" people will use to compare it.

Measurable: How well it reacts to steering input and throttle engagement (crisp as hell, such as the AE86), nimbleness, and an engine that rev's strain free to its redline, and screams like it has 500hp, when in fact it has a fraction of that.

I know it won't have one thing the AE86 has, and that is a simplisitic platform to start learning off of, but an extremely difficult car to actually push to its limit (no ABS, solid rear axle, chassis thats a bit rubbery after age, relatively short wheelbase effect this); easy to drive, hard to master. The FT-86 won't be exactly like this...but something tells me if Toyota can make the car a good starting platform to learn from, something that doesn't attempt to drive for you, and is a car where you can really learn to drive by 'feeling' the car through the corners, then they've done pretty damned good.
Edit: Har, GZE beat me...

For everything else, there are no words. You'd have to drive one to understand I suppose. The car really evokes feelings of joy and connection, because its just a mechanical machine, that connects you straight to the road with no interference from electronics. The fact that its RWD helps tremendously too.

Originally Posted by WingsofWar

The AE86 did have that spirit, even if it was a relatively stupid car.

Define "stupid", lest I start busting out the numbers game on comparable japanese sports car's of the same era (early-mid 80's) for people that understand numbers more than driver feel. Already proven the AE86 was better than the Celica fanbois RA60 in basically every sport category, even though the AE86 isn't a "sports car" and the RA is.

[WingsofWar]

Originally Posted by ToyotaObsession

Have you ever eaten something that looks delicious but tasted horrible? Or conversely looked horrible but tasted divine?

The only thing you can glean from looks is just that looks. Looking at prototypes won't tell you a damn thing about how it feels when you drive it. Even statistics like Lateral G's and Horsepower won't impart how much road feel you'll get through the steering wheel or how well it shifts.

ooo you make a valid point in your analogy

[SharedProphet]

But I think the point of the thread is to ask: can you describe how, when you finally do get a chance to drive the FT-86, you personally will be able to tell if it has that 'spirit' you're looking for?

[WingsofWar]

Originally Posted by OldSkoolToys

Define "stupid", lest I start busting out the numbers game on comparable japanese sports car's of the same era (early-mid 80's) for people that understand numbers more than driver feel. Already proven the AE86 was better than the Celica fanbois RA60 in basically every sport category, even though the AE86 isn't a "sports car" and the RA is.

LOL spoken like a true fanboy, i swear i come across lots of people who sing the same tune with their own cars, and some even cross your time era with your car. "I have proof its good!", "the numbers dont lie", "its better than this car", "motorsports history waaahh" blah blah blah. I wonder what would happen if all you were stuck in a room together with each equipped with a knife.

Iv driven 3 AE86 (GT-S) in the past 10 years, and i think they were stupid silly cars before we started modding them. God there was just no end to how bad they performed even if they were worn down due to age. Iv driven cars older and more worn down that still had balls. 1 AE86 i drove owned by my neighbor has got to be the best handling car iv ever had the pleasure of driving with silk road suspension, rx7 brakes, and a blacktop 20v..but i couldn't call it a normal AE86 at that point, and therefor would not be a silly stupid car, with sloppy body roll, and a retarded powerband, syncromesh made of woven baby diapers, and brakes that feel like gerbils holding on the rotors for dear life. On top of that it gets worse with Sr5 models with drum brakes..a shitty rear end with no LSD...seriously.

Im not saying its a bad car...a bad car would be a shit-teir car...and then dumping 10 grand into the car in mods..and beholding its still in shit-teir performance. And i can say shit about any car...no car is perfect, so if i were you i wouldn't be so offended at my distaste and comments about the AE86. AKA you don't need to defend your car to me.

[OldSkoolToys]

Easy there Tex, put the pea-shooter back in its holster. I wasn't being facetious, I was just asking what your definition of stupid is, and then pointing out from a numbers standpoint, the car actually was damned good for its time. Oh, and SR-5's don't count...seriously, econo version of the car with basically its only sport feature being the body.

I don't understand your complaint on the brakes. The brakes on my AE86 have always been rock-solid. It doesn't take anything fancy to stop a tin-can car with 110hp. The RX-7 brakes on your buds car seem to be for the 20v. I understand putting the 2-piston calipers really makes the difference, but even with a light-mod 20v, high quality street pads and rotors would also suffice...probably just the cheaper route if you know how to fab shit yourself.

So its not bad...but its stupid. FB is a pretty stupid car then too I suppose by your standards. I've driven both for long periods of time and my AE86 and the FB were pretty much exact on driver feel and performance. The 12a feels just as gutless as the 4A, but rev's in much the same manner. Brakes were worse on the FB, it was a base model with the drum rears. Couldn't even put any of my 14's from the AE86 on the FB either, stinkin' weird ass bolt pattern.

But to take away from it all...the AE86 is stupid because....err, they performed bad? So did my AE86 on its 20 year old struts/springs/rotors and worn out LSD when I first got it. Its also amazing how putting a slight upgrade street clutch on the 4A basically changes its power feel to the wheels. OEM clutches suck. Funny how a few replacements can change that up. What other cars did you drive from the same era for comparison? I won't sit here and pretend the car is perfect, without issues. Its got a laundry list of crap that could be better. Its not perfect, and its certainly not optimal, but I mean, you say its a stupid car...the ECU not good or something?

[WingsofWar]

Originally Posted by OldSkoolToys

So its not bad...but its stupid. FB is a pretty stupid car then too I suppose by your standards. I've driven both for long periods of time and my AE86 and the FB were pretty much exact on driver feel and performance. The 12a feels just as gutless as the 4A, but rev's in much the same manner. Brakes were worse on the FB, it was a base model with the drum rears. Couldn't even put any of my 14's from the AE86 on the FB either, stinkin' weird ass bolt pattern.

OH JESUS CHRIST YES! if we are comparing the ae86 to the SA22, the AE86 was a GOD to the shitty stock form of the 1st gen rx7...12a was a horrid ..horrid motor. Some fan boys like to argue its a good engine compaired to the 13b.... and those brakes and hubs... I like the STYLING of the 1st gen rx7...but other than that id pick a AE86 or even a Fiat for that matter.

BTW other japanese sports cars iv driven off the top of my head from that era was the 300zx, MR2, FC3S, celica/supra, skyline, fairlady 280zx, starion, lancer GSR uhh...crx and cressida i guess if you count those......a few hondas and other econoboxes that were shit.

[Dimman]

80's weren't exactly a shining example of automotive excellence for any manufacturer...

[OldSkoolToys]

@wings, it wasn't an SA, it was an FB ('85 MY) =P
@Dimm, 80's Toyota pickup, I could list more...but those pickups are absolute work horses. The 22R is not to be trifled with.

[Dimman]

Mk3 came out in the 80s too, but overall a weak decade. Or maybe the 90s just rocked so much harder in comparison?

[WingsofWar]

Originally Posted by Dimman

80's weren't exactly a shining example of automotive excellence for any manufacturer...

meh...but the 80s for motorsports was God-teir era.