New ICE Vehicles Banned in California by 2035

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by solidsnake11

What were you saying?

There are speed limits there. Imagine if there wasn’t!

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by mazeroni

I'm ready.

Musk says another 3 seconds are still on the table once development is complete. Allegedly this is a full interior car with just a race seat. It's not ready for sale, but it is what they want to deliver.

Pretty impressive considering the cost versus the performance and considering the weight it has to carry versus the competition that has bettered their time.

[Spuds]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Pretty impressive considering the cost versus the performance and considering the weight it has to carry versus the competition that has bettered their time.

The weight it "has" to carry is what gives it enough power output to be impressive though...

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Spuds

The weight it "has" to carry is what gives it enough power output to be impressive though...

Yes, but it is also a executive, 4-door, 5-seater sedan, so yeah, not a carbon fiber, two seater, million dollar, hypercar. Wait until the Roadster tackles the same track. I don’t know how much lighter or heavier it would be, but it will be a Plaid or better powertrain with a lot of extra fat cut off the car. That’s why it is impressive. Unless I am mistaken, the four door lap record was a Mercedes at 1:36 and this was 1:30, so impressive.

[Sasquachulator]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Pretty impressive considering the cost versus the performance and considering the weight it has to carry versus the competition that has bettered their time.

oh god the sound lol

[serialk11r]

Well we already have the Lotus Evija to compare to...

The battery pack sounds like an LTO (since you would have a hard time getting 1900hp from a 70kWh LiFePO4), which is probably something like 1400lbs. That means the rest of the car is 2300lbs.

If they can cut 700lbs, then you have a 3000lb curb weight car with 2000hp AWD, which is pretty freaking nuts. There isn't really any gasoline powered car that can compete with that.

[Irace86.2.0]

Realistically, what ICE car could compare to the maintenance cost or reliability of a Tesla Roadster or comparable EV? The EV won’t win any endurance race with thermal management and recharging being the two issues, but for most owners, such an EV would be perfect unless they specifically want the sound of an ICE or a manual, but most hypercars in this league don’t have a manual.

[WildCard600]

Does it get cold anywhere in CA ? Especially north CA ? Serious question. Tesla manuals say to not expose the car to temperatures below -20f for more than 24 hours. That alone would have been a no-go when I lived in VT.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by WildCard600

Does it get cold anywhere in CA ? Especially north CA ? Serious question. Tesla manuals say to not expose the car to temperatures below -20f for more than 24 hours. That alone would have been a no-go when I lived in VT.

I don’t think it is a problem in California:

[IMG]Cold is common at Lake Tahoe, where freezing occurs six out of ten nights a year and no month is free of frost. The coldest nights drop to below 0 °F (-18 °C), which happens on average six nights a winter.[/IMG]

[WildCard600]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

I don’t think it is a problem in California:

[IMG]Cold is common at Lake Tahoe, where freezing occurs six out of ten nights a year and no month is free of frost. The coldest nights drop to below 0 °F (-18 °C), which happens on average six nights a winter.[/IMG]

Wow, that isn't bad at all. Figured it would be a lot colder there. Their winter looks like a new england spring or fall.

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Realistically, what ICE car could compare to the maintenance cost or reliability of a Tesla Roadster or comparable EV?

I was reading about Wankel engines earlier this year and realized it's actually possible to make a really reliable engine with a Wankel design, and I think there are a number of other odd-ball designs that could also work. The downside is that you need exotic materials, but it's not like a Ferrari engine is cheap even though it's just aluminum and steel...

Apparently, swapping out the apex seals to silicon nitride on a Mazda Wankel will make it ultra-reliable. A few more changes and extra money spent will get the efficiency higher, let it spin faster and make more power, and weigh less. A roller bearing crank eliminates oil system reliability issues.

This kind of engine will get electric-motor-like power density but with no battery weight and great reliability. Just fill it with oil and gasoline and it'll go until the tank runs dry. Low end torque will be abysmal but you can rely on a mild-hybrid system to help the car get moving.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

I was reading about Wankel engines earlier this year and realized it's actually possible to make a really reliable engine with a Wankel design, and I think there are a number of other odd-ball designs that could also work. The downside is that you need exotic materials, but it's not like a Ferrari engine is cheap even though it's just aluminum and steel...

Apparently, swapping out the apex seals to silicon nitride on a Mazda Wankel will make it ultra-reliable. A few more changes and extra money spent will get the efficiency higher, let it spin faster and make more power, and weigh less. A roller bearing crank eliminates oil system reliability issues.

This kind of engine will get electric-motor-like power density but with no battery weight and great reliability. Just fill it with oil and gasoline and it'll go until the tank runs dry. Low end torque will be abysmal but you can rely on a mild-hybrid system to help the car get moving.

You may be speaking in general and not specific to the point I was making, but just in case you are, the maintenance and reliability of an ICE that makes 2000hp is not good at all, and a Wankel at 2000hp is definitely not reliable. From what I have read, those seals don't work great at high boost levels. In general, a giant turbo on a three or four rotor Wankel is still not going to match a Lotus Evija or Telsa Roadster for instant acceleration and performance, even if the Wankel had some low end torque fill with a hybrid setup. This isn't a "set it and forget it" type of powertrain, but that is much more the case with the EVs. At sub 2000hp levels, even if the apex seals were made to last longer, I don't think that would change the need to add oil to the fuel. This leads to poor emissions and more maintenance.

In general, one of the big issues with getting to 2000hp with an ICE engine for a FR layout is that the engine and cooling system needs to become bigger just like the battery/engines on the electric car needs to become bigger, except the ICE is going to add a lot of weight to the front of the car, which will greatly disrupt the weight balance, where the EV will distribute the weight evenly. Take the Buggati Chiron with all the carbon fiber and everything, and it weighs 4300lbs too, so it isn't a light car in its quest for reliable, huge horsepower. It has 10 radiators and:

The active surface area of the catalytic converters is massive 230,266 square metres, apparently. Or if you prefer to measure things in the classic unit of football pitches, we’re talking 30. That’s because the Chiron has six catalytic converters, and the two main ones are each six times as large as the cat you’d find on a regular “medium-sized” car.

Besides that fact, the EV is inherently better set up for performance because it has the ability to produce all the torque right away, and it has a single speed, so it doesn't need to shift. Even if they put a two speed in the EV, so it could contend better at higher speeds, the ease of attaining the performance will outmatch the ICE. Long term thermal management for the EV and range will still be an issue compared to a ICE vehicle. The second gen Tesla Roadster is suppose to hit the quarter mile in 8.8 seconds, which would make it the fastest production car in the world...for $200-250k, and it could be cheaper when finally released, and this is without the rocket thrusters of course... Heavily modified E85 "street legal" cars might match the time, but not the reliability.

[soundman98]

Originally Posted by WildCard600

Does it get cold anywhere in CA ? Especially north CA ? Serious question. Tesla manuals say to not expose the car to temperatures below -20f for more than 24 hours. That alone would have been a no-go when I lived in VT.

this is a critical consideration for a lot of the rest of the country though. many ev's minus the leaf do have ways to divert heating/cooling capacity to the battery pack to make the battery function in extreme temps, but the tech is relatively young, and new developments are still being made. so long-term overnight extreme temps can pose an issue, but they might come up with a development yet to counteract it.

Originally Posted by serialk11r

I was reading about Wankel engines earlier this year and realized it's actually possible to make a really reliable engine with a Wankel design, and I think there are a number of other odd-ball designs that could also work. The downside is that you need exotic materials, but it's not like a Ferrari engine is cheap even though it's just aluminum and steel...

Apparently, swapping out the apex seals to silicon nitride on a Mazda Wankel will make it ultra-reliable. A few more changes and extra money spent will get the efficiency higher, let it spin faster and make more power, and weigh less. A roller bearing crank eliminates oil system reliability issues.

This kind of engine will get electric-motor-like power density but with no battery weight and great reliability. Just fill it with oil and gasoline and it'll go until the tank runs dry. Low end torque will be abysmal but you can rely on a mild-hybrid system to help the car get moving.

wankels are almost entirely a fools errand anymore with tightening emissions requirements. the rx-8 was the last car with a rotary because mazda hasn't figured out how to get the motor to meet the requirements that went into effect since. and that's before factoring in the oddball running characteristics(it's got to warm up all the way or it floods), and the limited production run that any vehicle it goes into is going to have.

that's why mazda has made some ripples pushing the tech as an ev range extender. wankels are also better at constant rpm speeds, which automotive isn't. there's been some rumors in the past for using them in range extending power generators, which is an ideal use-case, but with expanding battery capacities, there's less of a need for it.

[serialk11r]

Actually I think it should be possible to formulate a pre-mix oil for Wankels that burns clean enough to do the job. The Renesis used a normal oil fed journal bearing, but it also consumed that same motor oil for lubrication, which guarantees cat poisoning over time.

A oil that's meant to be completely expendable with low emissions should be able to get the job done. If you use a roller bearing crank, then you don't need to circulate the oil anymore, and that takes care of the problem.

A charge cooled rotor that runs hotter also reduces the flooding issue because the rotor heats up much faster, and it also improves fuel economy by vaporizing the fuel (at the cost of torque).

For a sports car that's designed for the hobbyist to enjoy some loud noises and manual gearbox action in a very lightweight package, you could use something like a souped up version of this: https://freedom-motors.com/freedom_530cc.html

80hp per rotor at only 7500rpm is super conservative. With more spark plugs and lighter rotors, the 3 rotor should be able to do at least 300hp, with a total weight of around 120lbs including the cooling system. That's less weight than electric motors + controllers producing equal power.