Failure After J02 Recall - Discussion Threads

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by venturaII

Well, that's where we disagree I guess...lol

It is the basic physics of how fire works. Oil is a horrible fuel when in liquid form. It creates a very low level low temperature burn with more soot and smoke than heat. It would be slightly elevated in temperature from the air movement when moving but that would be countered by the fact it would be forced back and down by that same flow. For it to get hot enough to breach the fuel system in a moving car it would have to be massive and the clouds of smoke intense. Any oil leak fire that got hot enough to cause the fuel system to explode would have burnet through the wires and shut down the car well before that point. It just is not a feasible failure mode in an explosion.

[venturaII]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

It is the basic physics of how fire works. Oil is a horrible fuel when in liquid form. It creates a very low level low temperature burn with more soot and smoke than heat. It would be slightly elevated in temperature from the air movement when moving but that would be countered by the fact it would be forced back and down by that same flow. For it to get hot enough to breach the fuel system in a moving car it would have to be massive and the clouds of smoke intense. Any oil leak fire that got hot enough to cause the fuel system to explode would have burnet through the wires and shut down the car well before that point. It just is not a feasible failure mode in an explosion.

I've been a volunteer member of our local fire department since 1983, so am pretty well acquainted with how fire works, to include engine fires. Fuel system failure as a secondary source to the primary fire is absolutely possible, and possibly even likely. I've seen cars still running while fully engulfed in flames. There is no predictable way the car burns, in terms of what section of wiring melts before another, or in relationship to where in the engine bay they are located.

[ermax]

Originally Posted by venturaII

I've been a volunteer member of our local fire department since 1983, so am pretty well acquainted with how fire works, to include engine fires. Fuel system failure as a secondary source to the primary fire is absolutely possible, and possibly even likely. I've seen cars still running while fully engulfed in flames. There is no predictable way the car burns, in terms of what section of wiring melts before another, or in relationship to where in the engine bay they are located.

For sure there are to many damn variables to predict with certainty. My vote is still on rod through block.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by venturaII

I've been a volunteer member of our local fire department since 1983, so am pretty well acquainted with how fire works, to include engine fires. Fuel system failure as a secondary source to the primary fire is absolutely possible, and possibly even likely. I've seen cars still running while fully engulfed in flames. There is no predictable way the car burns, in terms of what section of wiring melts before another, or in relationship to where in the engine bay they are located.

I agree with the possibility in a stationary car. Totally disagree that leaked oil is a fuel source sufficient enough to cause an explosive breech in a fuel system of these cars while moving.
The variables are many but so are the known characteristics of fires.


And since we are attaching resumes for qualifications.
Canadian Armed Forces damage control and fire fighting school Esquimalt 1976
CAF Advanced fire fighting aircraft and fuel supply Lahar Germany 1977
Navy Reserve damage control and fire fighting officer 1993 to 2004
Industrial Health and safety professional in high hazard sites 1991 to present

[maslin]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Industrial Health and safety professional in high hazard sites 1991 to present

Could an FRS be designated a "High Hazard Site" at this point?

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by maslin

Could an FRS be designated a "High Hazard Site" at this point?

Not quite there yet. Moderate at best. Need to reach Pinto levels of bursting into flame to advance.

[N234]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

I agree with the possibility in a stationary car. Totally disagree that leaked oil is a fuel source sufficient enough to cause an explosive breech in a fuel system of these cars while moving.
The variables are many but so are the known characteristics of fires.


And since we are attaching resumes for qualifications.
Canadian Armed Forces damage control and fire fighting school Esquimalt 1976
CAF Advanced fire fighting aircraft and fuel supply Lahar Germany 1977
Navy Reserve damage control and fire fighting officer 1993 to 2004
Industrial Health and safety professional in high hazard sites 1991 to present

Sorry ventrall, but tcoat definitely has more caps lock power here...

Could an oil leak in the engine bay catch fire, damage intake plastics and exposing injectors for an explosive burn?


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[venturaII]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

I agree with the possibility in a stationary car. Totally disagree that leaked oil is a fuel source sufficient enough to cause an explosive breech in a fuel system of these cars while moving.
The variables are many but so are the known characteristics of fires.


And since we are attaching resumes for qualifications.
Canadian Armed Forces damage control and fire fighting school Esquimalt 1976
CAF Advanced fire fighting aircraft and fuel supply Lahar Germany 1977
Navy Reserve damage control and fire fighting officer 1993 to 2004
Industrial Health and safety professional in high hazard sites 1991 to present

And here comes the **** swinging... I'm not the one with the condescending post about 'the basics physics of fire'. This isn't a bucket of grease in the driveway with a match thrown on it...a small fire can easily progress into a large one as surrounding fuel sources are incorporated. But, you already knew that. Otherwise, car fires wouldn't happen.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by venturaII

And here comes the **** swinging... I'm not the one with the condescending post about 'the basics physics of fire'. This isn't a bucket of grease in the driveway with a match thrown on it...a small fire can easily progress into a large one as surrounding fuel sources are incorporated. But, you already knew that. Otherwise, car fires wouldn't happen.

It IS basic physics. It wasn't condescending.
You pulled your **** out first I just simply produced my bigger one.
Yes 100% agree that a small fire can and will progress to a large one under the right conditions. Still do not agree that THIS circumstance met any of those conditions.

[venturaII]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

It IS basic physics. It wasn't condescending.
You pulled your **** out first I just simply produced my bigger one.
Yes 100% agree that a small fire can and will progress to a large one under the right conditions. Still do not agree that THIS circumstance met any of those conditions.

And that's where we disagree. My experience with vehicle fires leads me to believe that right conditions could absolutely exist here, and do so rather commonly. And honestly, all that needs to be done is look for a hole in the block. If none, then case closed. But I don't think anyone is ever going to see this car again now that the insurance company owns it, so the fire source is pure conjecture at this point. STILL, no matter what the source, it would seem that it's technician related, which is really the topic at hand..

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by venturaII

STILL, no matter what the source, it would seem that it's technician related, which is really the topic at hand..

On this we totally agree!

[8RZ]

Time to call Mythbusters!

They're still on, right?

[MJones_RB]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

It IS basic physics. It wasn't condescending.
You pulled your **** out first I just simply produced my bigger one.
Yes 100% agree that a small fire can and will progress to a large one under the right conditions. Still do not agree that THIS circumstance met any of those conditions.

Speaking of fire, I had my plastic engine cover fall off (those things are barely secured on) whilst driving, and fall onto the header heat shield and melt. If something like oil was to leak onto that area, would there be a risk of ignition, or would it just smoke out?

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by MJones_RB

Speaking of fire, I had my plastic engine cover fall off (those things are barely secured on) whilst driving, and fall onto the header heat shield and melt. If something like oil was to leak onto that area, would there be a risk of ignition, or would it just smoke out?

Smoke like a sonofabitch for sure but there is a risk. The flash point for uncontaminated, synthetic motor oil in it's liquid state is around 450 degrees. Looks like the header temperature is "normally" around 480 and can of course go higher so it is feasible. The flames would be small and brief if it is just oil spilled on there. It would only be an issue if there was a constant supply of oil that continued to feed the flames. The farther away you get from the block of course the less likely it is to burst into flames.
Not a huge concern since many cars leak a bit of oil and it hits the exhaust but not many blow up or even burn. If every car with an oil leak exploded into a ball of flame the highways would look like a constant Michael Bay movie!