Learning manual, stalled so many times

[Breadman]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

Hmm look at that. Maybe the reason road cars have then hinged off the firewall is because it's cheaper?

when i drove VWs they had gas pedals like sewing machine pedals, where its pivot was off teh floor

[extrashaky]

Originally Posted by cjd

Not the ones sensitive enough to handle smooth clutching... There are definitely muscles in your upper leg and even up into your back you're going to be using, but the finesse comes from small muscle groups that control your ankle.

I have no problem with it. Nor do my dad, brother or mom, and nor did either of my grandfathers who taught my parents how to drive. The time you need the most clutch control is in stop and go traffic, and I have enough control there that I find it easier to drive a manual in heavy traffic than an automatic. Sounds to me like you have weak upper thigh muscles if you can't control the clutch with your heel off the floor.

Just for shits and giggles, just now when I was out driving to the grocery store I tried using just my ankle. I physically couldn't do it, not because of muscle control but because the range of motion required to fully depress the clutch was longer than my ankle will bend. If I slide my heel forward enough to push the clutch to the firewall, I still have to lift my leg to go to the dead pedal, or I'm left riding the clutch. And I don't have particularly stiff ankles. I know this from flexibility training with other people.

That got me to thinking. I have never had any issue at all with the clutch in this car and have never understood all the whining about the soft feeling or the bite point. It has always felt just fine to me. But I would have a very serious problem with the bite point if I were using the pedals wrong and leaving my heel on the floor. It also occurred to me that this is probably the source of all the failed throwout bearings and shift forks, where people are riding the clutch because they're too lazy to pick up their feet.

So when we have the newbies having such trouble learning to drive stick, I wonder if it's because they're developing the lazy habit of riding along with their heel dug into the floor where they don't have sufficient unencumbered range of motion to properly operate the clutch. It would explain so much.

[extrashaky]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

Let's see what the pedals look like on a racecar

Nascar pedals are not designed that way.

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

Hmm look at that. Maybe the reason road cars have then hinged off the firewall is because it's cheaper?

More likely it's because of engine and transmission placement. No doubt the one you linked has a rear mounted engine with cables running underneath to the clutch, whereas a front-engine race car is going to have hydraulic master cylinders mounted on the other side of the firewall so that a top-mounted pedal is going to make more sense.

[extrashaky]

And here's a video of a guy using the low mounted pedals... Except that he lifts his leg and doesn't pivot off his heel dug into the floor. Because that would be doing it wrong.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdWSyrqEnE4[/ame]

[extrashaky]

Oh look. Here's another one.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WSCpBQ0e34[/ame]

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by extrashaky

Nascar pedals are not designed that way.











More likely it's because of engine and transmission placement. No doubt the one you linked has a rear mounted engine with cables running underneath to the clutch, whereas a front-engine race car is going to have hydraulic master cylinders mounted on the other side of the firewall so that a top-mounted pedal is going to make more sense.

Ah yes, Nascar. The Internet explorer of Motorsport. The one Motorsport division that can't figure out how to make modern suspension work, or how to develop rain tires. They're surely on top of ergonomics
in all seriousness you're right about the packaging concern with front engined cars, but on the other hand the 911s started using firewall hinging pedals when Porsche started cutting costs.

Originally Posted by extrashaky

I have no problem with it. Nor do my dad, brother or mom, and nor did either of my grandfathers who taught my parents how to drive. The time you need the most clutch control is in stop and go traffic, and I have enough control there that I find it easier to drive a manual in heavy traffic than an automatic. Sounds to me like you have weak upper thigh muscles if you can't control the clutch with your heel off the floor.

Just for shits and giggles, just now when I was out driving to the grocery store I tried using just my ankle. I physically couldn't do it, not because of muscle control but because the range of motion required to fully depress the clutch was longer than my ankle will bend. If I slide my heel forward enough to push the clutch to the firewall, I still have to lift my leg to go to the dead pedal, or I'm left riding the clutch. And I don't have particularly stiff ankles. I know this from flexibility training with other people.

That got me to thinking. I have never had any issue at all with the clutch in this car and have never understood all the whining about the soft feeling or the bite point. It has always felt just fine to me. But I would have a very serious problem with the bite point if I were using the pedals wrong and leaving my heel on the floor. It also occurred to me that this is probably the source of all the failed throwout bearings and shift forks, where people are riding the clutch because they're too lazy to pick up their feet.

So when we have the newbies having such trouble learning to drive stick, I wonder if it's because they're developing the lazy habit of riding along with their heel dug into the floor where they don't have sufficient unencumbered range of motion to properly operate the clutch. It would explain so much.

You can lift your foot once you're past the bite point, that way you won't ride the clutch. I've been driving this way for 14 years and never burned out a clutch or TOB. All my cars have been manual and I drive 15k-20k a year. My E46 has 200k on the original clutch and it's still going strong.

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by extrashaky

And here's a video of a guy using the low mounted pedals... Except that he lifts his leg and doesn't pivot off his heel dug into the floor. Because that would be doing it wrong.

That's a racing scenario though. They're clutching very quickly regardless. When I'm not worried about shifting smoothly (like autocross) I don't drag my heel.

That kinda contradicts my 'racecars have floor hinging pedals' argument though.🤣
So maybe there's no point to the difference.

I just know I prefer floor hinging pedals given the choice.

[extrashaky]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

in all seriousness you're right about the packaging concern with front engined cars, but on the other hand the 911s started using firewall hinging pedals when Porsche started cutting costs.

Here's a 1964 911. The pedals go through the floor, but they're long-travel lever action like that old Chevy truck I posted earlier. Note that they put them just as high up as firewall mounted pedals, so that you operate them the same way with your whole leg.

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

I've been driving this way for 14 years and never burned out a clutch or TOB.

I have used a heavy adjustable wrench to hammer nails before, but that doesn't mean I was doing it right. The thing is, I really don't care how you drive your car. I'm more concerned about all these people telling newbies to do it wrong. It's fine if you have your own driving style, but please don't teach bad habits to people trying to learn.

[humfrz]

I very rarely wander over to the BRZ part of the forum.

YIKES! 50 posts on how to shift a MT vehicle -

I've been shifting the manual transmissions on all sorts of vehicles since I was 5 years old (back on the farm). So after 70 years of experience, here's how I do it.

Wait one, I've been doing it for so long, that it's such second nature - I don't know how I do it - big help, huh, sorry,



humfrz

[feardemon]

Hey, I was most worried about this when I bought my BRZ. I had extremely limited experience with manual. My uncle gave me a good overview in his mazdaspeed 3. I was ok on flat but really struggled with hills (read slight inclines). Only so much you can learn in one afternoon (It was so fun couldn't wait for my BRZ to arrive). Once I picked up my car I knew I needed to practice.

I first located a parking lot that actually had decent slope and almost no one around at the time and practiced. It really clicked for me when I stopped on the slope let roll back got a feel for that. Then I started playing with the clutch and try to get so I could just hold the vehicle (briefly as you are slipping the clutch). Then reapply brakes and go again till get a feel where the clutch starts to bite (note its much more apparent on a hill as release too much and you will stall and start to go backwards). It really clicked when I could not go up the hill with just the clutch release so added small amount accelerator while releasing the clutch. No pressure and practice really makes learning a lot less stressful. Good luck and have fun!

tldr: Find a hill with little or no traffic and practice with just holding brief with just the clutch.

[ermax]

Originally Posted by extrashaky

It's only hard if your leg muscles are atrophied. Get some exercise.

It has nothing to do with strength. It’s fine motor skills. I’m 6’2” and 160lbs. I’ve run a minimum of 100 miles a month for the past 4 years. I do a 7:15min/mi half marathon and core workouts daily. Still don’t jack my whole leg when clutching other than when launching were I’m not looking for smoothness. Also, you don’t pivot your ankle the whole way through the throw. You pivot up until it bites and then lift your leg for the end of the throw. All my cars have been manuals and all of my cars have been autoxed and tracked.

[spike021]

If I’m moderately “husky”/out of shape and have no problem working a clutch (never sore even when I’m driving in such a way that I have to operate the clutch pedal a lot in short bursts of time) then I have absolutely no idea why we’re getting into all this lol.

I’m gonna go cram another pizza. Or maybe a double cheese burger with cheesy garlic fries.

[Tcoat]

This whole thread is freakin' hilarious.

[ermax]

Anyone who uses their ankle has to be a fat ass. Hahaha.