Is 12lb total difference in weight going to affect a lot?

[rvoll]

Originally Posted by Yardjass

That's the whole better feeling vs. physically optimized concept again. Also maybe a bit because this vehicle was designed to have a certain track width and most wider aftermarket wheels that people put on them will change this slightly.


I'm not trying to say turn it into a steam roller. Eventually you will hit marginal returns and yes, you will lose out on acceleration and braking capability a lot if you stay at stock power levels. However, look no further than the BRZ race cars if you think anything even close to a stock width tire is optimized for handling.

BRZ race cars are mostly turboed. Once you change the balance, as I've said before, you argue for wider tires. However, this also argues for a staggered fitment as exists on virtually all higher powered sports cars. From what I've seen on the "wider wheels/tires" threads, most want wider on na cars -- and from a performance perspective, that just doesn't make much sense. Does it look better? Absolutely, you'll get no argument here on that. But once you put better, non-Primacy HP tires like the PS4S on your car, you have more stick than most of us can handle -- and that's at a standard width. This is especially true for street cars you aren't going to race.

All of that said, there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with going wide, lowered, and flush/poke for looks. And since you are not going to race, you don't have to worry about lap times. I've had track cars which were modified, and street cars modified for looks, so I've done the gamut. Now that I'm older, things like handling for safety, ride quality, and some acceptable level of quietness are more important than when I was young. If I could argue for a real performance benefit from some of these mods, for a street/daily driver, then I'd certainly do it. But, alas, I can't (except for the tires).

P.S. You might ask why a BRZ if I wanted ride quality and quiet.... The answer is that even though I'm old, driving a fun car is still important....

[churchx]

I would argue on bit that wide wheels absolutely look better. My take on this would be that most won't care :P. How often do you lean to look under other cars to see their wheel width? How often you check tire width for cars in front of you or for cars you see in rear view mirror? Do you check tire width for other cars you see parked?
I just don't see all the big deal and where all that supposed coolness in wide wheels/tires comes from. To me it more probably is just feeding envy to exotics cars one cannot afford, as in most cases only owner knows/cares how wide his tires are and all that coolness is in his head only. Some exterior visual mods on body / aero elements / outside of wheel might be easily noticed/seen. But width of tire?! If someone actively checks up width of tires for all cars one sees all the time .. i'd say such guy may have some psychological issues.
Is all this described above really worth compromising performance / handling and spend more?

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by rvoll

BRZ race cars are mostly turboed. Once you change the balance, as I've said before, you argue for wider tires. However, this also argues for a staggered fitment as exists on virtually all higher powered sports cars. From what I've seen on the "wider wheels/tires" threads, most want wider on na cars -- and from a performance perspective, that just doesn't make much sense. Does it look better? Absolutely, you'll get no argument here on that. But once you put better, non-Primacy HP tires like the PS4S on your car, you have more stick than most of us can handle -- and that's at a standard width. This is especially true for street cars you aren't going to race.

All of that said, there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with going wide, lowered, and flush/poke for looks. And since you are not going to race, you don't have to worry about lap times. I've had track cars which were modified, and street cars modified for looks, so I've done the gamut. Now that I'm older, things like handling for safety, ride quality, and some acceptable level of quietness are more important than when I was young. If I could argue for a real performance benefit from some of these mods, for a street/daily driver, then I'd certainly do it. But, alas, I can't (except for the tires).

P.S. You might ask why a BRZ if I wanted ride quality and quiet.... The answer is that even though I'm old, driving a fun car is still important....

most race cars dont have forced induction and justbecause you cant handle the performance, does not mean there are no performance gains

[rvoll]

Originally Posted by churchx

I would argue on bit that wide wheels absolutely look better. My take on this would be that most won't care :P. How often you look under other cars to see their wheel width? How often you check tire width for cars in front of you or for cars you see in rear view mirror? Do you check tire width for other cars you see parked?
I just don't see all the big deal and where all that supposed coolness in wide wheels/tires comes from. To me it more probably is just feeding envy to exotics cars one cannot afford, as in most cases only owner knows/cares how wide his tires are and all that coolness is in his head only. Some exterior visual mods on body / aero elements / outside of wheel might be easily noticed/seen. But width of tire?! If someone actively checks up width of tires for all cars one sees all the time .. i'd say such guy may have some psychological issues.
Is all this described above really worth compromising performance / handling and spend more?

The answer is no, it isn't really worth doing IMO -- and I have not done it. I like the car as it was designed. And you are absolutely right about envy of exotic cars -- or race cars. The same is true of other mods whether it be headers/exhaust systems, intakes, tunes, etc. They won't make the car a Ferrari, or even a Vette, and they are pretty much worthless for a street car. But I look at it this way. Most people won't ever be able to buy one of these high end supercars. If it gives them a modicum of happiness to do these things, then it might be money well spent. And I do think the exotics look better with wide, staggered, wheels. Do most people notice? Absolutely not. But there are groups of people who do notice like fellow ricers and others in clubs/groups. Look at how many in this forum do these mods.

At the end of the day, we should all do what makes us happy -- if we can afford it. Again, I don't want all of these mods because I know they don't really do much for a street car. But if I'm honest, making this car look more exotic does engender some primal, testosterone infused, emotions that, while illogical and not justified, just exist. What can I say????

[rvoll]

Originally Posted by fatoni

most race cars dont have forced induction and justbecause you cant handle the performance, does not mean there are no performance gains

Really? Most BRZ/86 race cars don't have FI? Really? You can't compare a 500 hp NA to a 200 hp twin. I'm sure you didn't mean to do that, right???

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by rvoll

Really? Most BRZ/86 race cars don't have FI? Really? You can't compare a 500 hp NA to a 200 hp twin. I'm sure you didn't mean to do that, right???

didnt mean to do what?

[Leonardo]

I feel as strongly about my wide tires as guys do about their MT. I have an AT. So... Whatever floats your boat... Or makes you happy with your car. This is what you should do. But then believing it makes your car better is subjective. Better for you, YES. For me, maybe not. I have made choices/compromises that make me happy. Also, EVERY decision is a compromise.

Form follows function, this is true. If I tracked my car, I would have made different choices/compromises. I understand that contact patch size, wheel weight, and lap time are 100% related.

I have done every mod to my car with my hands. (except mount ballance tires, but only a few of us have a tire machine) It has been 5 years 10 months now of learning and wrenching. Which has made me very happy.





(Oh no! Don't start that again!!! AT vs MT)

[rvoll]

Originally Posted by fatoni

didnt mean to do what?

Exactly... and you continue to do so...

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by rvoll

Exactly... and you continue to do so...

I feel like you think dumb because you think I'm comparing 500hp cars to 200hp cars. I'm not. You just have this habit of making things up.

[Leonardo]

I can ref this if you guys want....



via Imgflip Meme Generator

[SuperTom]

Originally Posted by fatoni

most race cars dont have forced induction and justbecause you cant handle the performance, does not mean there are no performance gains

Indy Cars are turbo charged

[rvoll]

Originally Posted by fatoni

I feel like you think dumb because you think I'm comparing 500hp cars to 200hp cars. I'm not. You just have this habit of making things up.

Yeah... there are millions of 200hp na race cars.... Please don't tell me you are just talking about Miatas.... And please don't tell me you are talking about something like the cup series, or B-spec, or SCCA Production where you are, by rule, limited to base hp. And most of the cars in those classes don't have extra wide tires. So if you are not talking about any of those, what are you talking about (without just listing Google search one-offs).

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by rvoll

Yeah... there are millions of 200hp na race cars.... Please don't tell me you are just talking about Miatas.... And please don't tell me you are talking about something like the cup series, or B-spec, or SCCA Production where you are, by rule, limited to base hp. And most of the cars in those classes don't have extra wide tires. So if you are not talking about any of those, what are you talking about (without just listing Google search one-offs).

I'm just talking about race cars. As a whole. I don't think the majority of them have turbos.

[rvoll]

Originally Posted by fatoni

I'm just talking about race cars. As a whole. I don't think the majority of them have turbos.

You miss the point completely. A 500 hp NA doesn't need a turbo to race but it does need wider wheels to handle that hp. A 200 hp NA without a turbo doesn't need extra wide wheels/tires to handle the load. So the point you were trying to make doesn't make any sense....

This thread is about wheels and tires. The only reason turbo came in the discussion is that it is just about the only way to significantly increase the hp of a twin. Once you raise that hp significantly, you change the balance of the car. You need tires that can handle that load -- especially on the driving wheels.

You were trying to make the argument that heavier wheels are better on a COG basis and I showed you the math which said that was ludicrous. A heavier car takes more hp to accelerate and is more difficult to stop -- even if that weight is in the wheels/unsprung weight. You keep on trying to make the argument that wider is better -- and for our cars without a significant increase in hp, it just isn't. Basically, you go with the most narrow width that still holds the car on turns at high speeds to reduce lap times. On our car, that has proven to be about 225 with good, sticky, tires. That keeps weight down and improves handling.

Again, if you like wide wheels/tires, go for it because it is your car. Just don't try to justify it in terms of performance. There is nothing wrong with making your car look good in your eyes so you can get that exotic sports car feeling. We all do things to make us feel better -- even me -- and that is just fine.