ACE A-350 dyno results - Did it deliver?

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by mrg666

260 whp is the entry level power of a supercharged twin with 91 octane.

2800 lbs is the stock weight

2800/260 = 10.77 lbs/whp for a supercharger with 91 octane

200 whp is the highest NA with 91 octane around. It was CSGMike's car with ACE ~ 195whp. But lets call it 200 for your benefit.

200 whp * 10.77 lbs/whp = 2153 lbs required for the same ratio of a supercharged twin.

Show me a twin at this curb weight suitable for daily driving. There is only one on this forum which is close to 2200 lbs. And it is completely stripped out with just one seat in it and it doesn't count.

It is not possible to bring an NA car to the same power-to-weght ratio of a supercharged car. Yet again, you don't know what you are talking about.

A 260 whp IS NOT the entry level output of a supercharged twin. Maybe it is the output of some superchargers, but not all of them. Usually they are moving closer to the 240 whp area.

You are also starting with a stock car and you're not adding any weight because of the supercharger and other needed supported mods. I'll say again bigger wheels, tires, brakes. Someone can go in the high end cost category and install forged wheels, very light brakes etc. We are talking here about going with the ordinary options.

So, your numbers should be:

2900/240 = 12.08 lbs/whp

For a 200whp NA car we need:

200 whp * 12.08 lbs/whp = 2416 lbs. It is light, but it is quite possible without even stripping the interior. I am already in the 2620 area and I haven't done too an extreme weight reduction (e.g., changing front seats or exhaust, removing back seats etc).

Besides, you can install certain lightweight rotated parts that give you a much bigger weight gain under acceleration. You are supposed to have a PhD. Go find the rotational inertia equations and figure out for yourself. I will not start here such kind of discussion.

Some might say that I am doing a fair comparison, but I said this at the beginning. Comparing a basic supercharged car with a NA modified car that has additional lightweight parts. If you do the same changes on the supercharged car, then yes you cannot catch it.

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

I'll say again bigger wheels, tires, brakes. Someone can go in the high end cost category and install forged wheels, very light brakes etc. We are talking here about going with the ordinary options.

You don't need to go into the high end cost category to get a lightweight wheel. RPF1's are like 1k and they are cast, not even forged. There is no such thing as "Cheap" for a good reliable brake setup but you can get a Willwood BBK for 1500. Even stepping up to ST or AP is 2-2300.

I am already in the 2620 area and I haven't done too an extreme weight reduction (e.g., changing front seats or exhaust, removing back seats etc).

So a lower end option from a name brand seat company is still around 700 a seat, plus you need to spend 100-200 on a bracket X2. A decent catback is about 1k. Looking pretty comparable to the price of a BBK and a light set of wheels.

Not like someone that is spending money FI is that concerned about dumping more money into mods on their car anyway.

[tomm.brz]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

A 260 whp IS NOT the entry level output of a supercharged twin. Maybe it is the output of some superchargers, but not all of them. Usually they are moving closer to the 240 whp area.

You are also starting with a stock car and you're not adding any weight because of the supercharger and other needed supported mods. I'll say again bigger wheels, tires, brakes. Someone can go in the high end cost category and install forged wheels, very light brakes etc. We are talking here about going with the ordinary options.

So, your numbers should be:

2900/240 = 12.08 lbs/whp

For a 200whp NA car we need:

200 whp * 12.08 lbs/whp = 2416 lbs. It is light, but it is quite possible without even stripping the interior. I am already in the 2620 area and I haven't done too an extreme weight reduction (e.g., changing front seats or exhaust, removing back seats etc).

Besides, you can install certain lightweight rotated parts that give you a much bigger weight gain under acceleration. You are supposed to have a PhD. Go find the rotational inertia equations and figure out for yourself. I will not start here such kind of discussion.

Some might say that I am doing a fair comparison, but I said this at the beginning. Comparing a basic supercharged car with a NA modified car that has additional lightweight parts. If you do the same changes on the supercharged car, then yes you cannot catch it.

Wooo finally you declared the weight of your car : )
still wondering though how you can declare a perceived (lol) hp of 260bhp with your setup that could barely do 170whp and you don t even have a carbon fiber driveshaft


many supercharger kits do more than 240whp, but well many just limit the power because they are worried about bending the rods


and still.. i find so stupid to try to compare SC/NA even if the NA one is lighter because the SC has sooo much more torque from low end that any comparison is just stupid and doesnt stand up

[new2subaru]

EDIT: This is getting way off topic. We dodn't need to pollute this thread with more NA vs FI

In for more ACE 350 results!

[JSube]

Originally Posted by RJasonKlein

Congratulations! Something you should know is that the base tune is very conservative and performance will improve substantially, particularly in the top end, with datalogging and flashing of successive tunes. Initially I felt that the car wasn’t as fast as I had hoped, but I soon found that it’s quite deceptive because the power delivery is so linear and strong right off of idle. Driving the car for a few days demonstrated how much more power was now available throughout the rev-range, and improved tunes really made the car come alive later on. Enjoy!

Originally Posted by bfrank1972

I think this header is for people who A) aren't interested in FI for various reasons, or B) are interested in supercharging down the road and want to optimize at no expense spared. Also keep in mind that purchasing/shipping/installing/tuning/running someone's used supercharger kit costs significantly more than $1700 plus an extra 500-600.

Azzudien- RJK is right about the huge driveability improvements gained and about tuning being a process. He's also one the guys that helped me out when I first got on the forum and had too many questions about modding . It took quite a few revisions on my car because the engine kept accepting more timing. If you've sent Zach datalogs from your initial tune and he said you're good to go, that would mean your engine is already just inside the timing envelope, I would guess. If you haven't done that, you absolutely need to.

Also, bfrank identified the reason to drop the $$ on NA. I'm anti-turbo (BUT NOT ANTI-TURBO OWNERS!!!) so the NA power package fit the bill for me. I've also just ordered the Delicious flexfuel kit and am looking forward to the last bit I get from that. For me, while I'm spending top dollar on NA, my opinion is if I wanted a turbo car, and I've had several, I'd buy another car set up that way from the factory. I also have a huge amount of faith in Delicious Tuning, while still accepting the fact there are no guarantees in mod life.

[Azzudien]

Thanks Jsube, yes I have sent my first datalogs to Zach and anxiously wait for the first revision.

And I agree with new2subaru, this thread is about the A350 header and Delicious tune, lets stay on topic.

And for what it's worth, the next time I have to replace the entire exhaust I am finding a lift. My neck is still killing me from spending 5 hours on my back with my car just up on jack stands. And before someone screams 5 hours? It was my first time doing something like this so I was taking it slow and checking everything as I went.

[SuperTom]

Originally Posted by justinco

Unfortunately I did not. Looking back, I wish I would have.

Well you could still run your setup since we know stock 0-60 is around 6.0-6.2. Would be cool to see how low in the 5's it could go

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

Bigger wheels and tires, bigger brakes.

Better tires > bigger tires wheels.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126829

[JSube]

Originally Posted by Azzudien

Thanks Jsube, yes I have sent my first datalogs to Zach and anxiously wait for the first revision.

And I agree with new2subaru, this thread is about the A350 header and Delicious tune, lets stay on topic.

And for what it's worth, the next time I have to replace the entire exhaust I am finding a lift. My neck is still killing me from spending 5 hours on my back with my car just up on jack stands. And before someone screams 5 hours? It was my first time doing something like this so I was taking it slow and checking everything as I went.

I def. got a vivid picture of you under the car with exhaust pieces inches from you nose FOR 5 HOURS
I'm lucky my neighbor has a lift- it's a 90 min job if you're super anal, 60 min if you're a normal...

[Azzudien]

Originally Posted by JSube

I def. got a vivid picture of you under the car with exhaust pieces inches from you nose FOR 5 HOURS
I'm lucky my neighbor has a lift- it's a 90 min job if you're super anal, 60 min if you're a normal...

I may have slept through part of that time, not sure though after I dropped the muffler on my head. Stupid rubber hangers

[mrg666]

What I see from most of the dyno charts is that ACE header fills (flattens) the dips in torque and power curves very well. I am wondering if the ACE header will make that much difference for a supercharger setup since the power and torque curves are already very much flat. I can't find a dyno chart that shows a supercharged FA20 before and after ACE header. Do you guys have any insights? CSG Mike, do you have any comments?

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by mrg666

What I see from most of the dyno charts is that ACE header fills (flattens) the dips in torque and power curves very well. I am wondering if the ACE header will make that much difference for a supercharger setup since the power and torque curves are already very much flat. I can't find a dyno chart that shows a supercharged FA20 before and after ACE header. Do you guys have any insights? CSG Mike, do you have any comments?

It's additive with a supercharger, and allows for more boost before knocking, all other conditions equal.

E.g. a JRSC HBP can be used on pump gas with an Ace header. On a Tomei/JDL header, the HBP will cause the engine to knock severely enough that you have to pull a ton of timing at higher RPM to be able to safely redline, effectively completely negating the point of increasing boost to begin with, and ultimately having less peak power than before the HBP.

[mrg666]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

It's additive with a supercharger, and allows for more boost before knocking, all other conditions equal.

E.g. a JRSC HBP can be used on pump gas with an Ace header. On a Tomei/JDL header, the HBP will cause the engine to knock severely enough that you have to pull a ton of timing at higher RPM to be able to safely redline, effectively completely negating the point of increasing boost to begin with, and ultimately having less peak power than before the HBP.

Interesting! I am not going to increase boost. If I just replace the stock header with ACE and switch to Delicious tune, I understand from your first comment that the power will increase. I assume ACE header will tilt the curves upwards to provide most of the benefit at higher RPM, right? How much is a reasonable expectation over stock JRSC with factory tune? Do you have any estimate/experience? Thanks for helping out.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by mrg666

Interesting! I am not going to increase boost. If I just replace the stock header with ACE and switch to Delicious tune, I understand from your first comment that the power will increase. I assume ACE header will tilt the curves upwards to provide most of the benefit at higher RPM, right? How much is a reasonable expectation over stock JRSC with factory tune? Do you have any estimate/experience? Thanks for helping out.

You'll have significant midrange gains, with some top end gains.