Coilover options for DD

[jeepmor]

Great information, thanks everyone. I've binned this ambition of late for the holiday season and I have some wrenching to do on my jeep before I do these on my FR-S. That said, struts will be a plug and play versus some of the custom fab work I have to do on the jeep.

I won't be serious about Autox or chasing trophies, but will be looking for better handling. My colleague employs MCA Reds and he stated they're very likely way more than I need. But he is an avid Autox and track guy chasing trophies and bragging rights. He recommended the Teins for me and knows several other owners that are happy with them.

As for my car, I've been through a set of Pilot SS with 300TW rating. And now have the Yoko AD08Rs with a 200TW rating. The Pilots and especially the Yoko's improved grip a whole lot over the Primacy's. The Pilots were good, the Yoko's are great. I can corner hard, typically in a tight corner about 2nd gear, and get the inside rear wheel to lift enough it'll toss out the back end a bit and light up the traction control. This is the handling issue, specifically, I'm looking to improve.

It's difficult to get this car to lose the front end unless I go completely neutral through the corner. Just touch the throttle and it goes to oversteer, which is reassuring. But again, I'm driving country roads, not on a skidpad where I can safely push it too far and slide out of control. I did corner a 15 mph near hair pin corner at about 35-40 recently, with the Yoko's on. I thought I was gonna slide it to the other lane. The inside rear lifted and back end went loose on me, but the front tracked hard and felt like it just pulled me through the rest of the corner and never lost any grip. It impressed me a lot, but that back end slipping is the issue I'd like to reduce, but as usual, I'd still like the oversteer versus understeer per usual. If that's my limit on this setup, that's fine, but I'm certain in can be improved on is all.

I'll come back to this thread to take notes frequently, appreciate the input.

[strat61caster]

@jeepmor What's your alignment? It can have a big effect on how "oversteery" the car feels.

[jeepmor]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

@jeepmor What's your alignment? It can have a big effect on how "oversteery" the car feels.

It's currently stock. I'm too new to alignment for handling characteristics to comment much further. My front end grip is good, I'd like a little more tail grip, but would still appreciate the oversteer versus understeer for obvious reasons.

Looks like I'll end up getting some camber bolts first and making alignment adjustments first to see what I can wring out of it before I purchase new coils. This is a mid term project for me, so I'm in data gathering mode. I have some friends and colleagues with more experience on this platform, so I'll him them up after the first of the year.

[strat61caster]

Stock could be anything, especially after thousands of miles on the road, I'm sure your friends will echo the following sentiment:

Front: Max out the camber bolts, zero toe
Rear: some toe in, 1/16" to 1/8" total ( 0.05-0.15 degrees) is my suggestion

A good shop will nail the numbers no questions asked.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by jeepmor

It's difficult to get this car to lose the front end unless I go completely neutral through the corner. Just touch the throttle and it goes to oversteer, which is reassuring.

Getting on the gas induces UNDERsteer, not oversteer. You get *off* the gas to induce oversteer and point the car.

[Teseo]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Getting on the gas induces UNDERsteer, not oversteer. You get *off* the gas to induce oversteer and point the car.

On flat surface right? Because i oversteer on the uphill when i smash the gas pedal, or maybe my tires are worn out?

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by jeepmor

It's currently stock. I'm too new to alignment for handling characteristics to comment much further. My front end grip is good, I'd like a little more tail grip, but would still appreciate the oversteer versus understeer for obvious reasons.

Looks like I'll end up getting some camber bolts first and making alignment adjustments first to see what I can wring out of it before I purchase new coils. This is a mid term project for me, so I'm in data gathering mode. I have some friends and colleagues with more experience on this platform, so I'll him them up after the first of the year.

It is not a coincidence that other car manufacturers use much bigger rear tires. Our cars have a squared setup and it is difficult to achieve more tail grip. You can try to use some indirect methods like playing with the alignment or using softer rear springs which provide more mechanical grip. A good solution is to use progressive rear springs which combine both of the words. Soft springs rates for better grip and harder rates to keep the body roll reasonable.

I'll propose again the Sachs performance coilovers. Not a very popular option in North American market, but with a huge reputation and extensive testing in Germany. Here is the TMG CS-V3 ZF car which was used in Nurburging for testing their performance clutch and coilovers:

[jeepmor]

I have some numbers to run off of now, thank you strat61caster. I'm just going to tweak my stock setup on the cheap first to see what I can gain. My existing alignments, albeit stock, have held very well. All my tire wear is dead flat across the tires across 4 sets now. Reset alignment twice now due to collision work.

How does the BRZ compare to the FRS? I know the springs are a bit different, but haven't seen much comparison on the handling differences. Subarus historically understeer badly in my GenII Outback manual trans experience. But that is not a sporty car either, I get that. Still, it was bad and had stock alignment.

[finch1750]

Originally Posted by jeepmor

I have some numbers to run off of now, thank you strat61caster. I'm just going to tweak my stock setup on the cheap first to see what I can gain. My existing alignments, albeit stock, have held very well. All my tire wear is dead flat across the tires across 4 sets now. Reset alignment twice now due to collision work.

How does the BRZ compare to the FRS? I know the springs are a bit different, but haven't seen much comparison on the handling differences. Subarus historically understeer badly in my GenII Outback manual trans experience. But that is not a sporty car either, I get that. Still, it was bad and had stock alignment.

FRS rates are more staggered to be a bit more tail happy, but still suffers from under steer without a proper alignment.


Rates can be found here for most OEM options
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8739

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by jeepmor

How does the BRZ compare to the FRS? I know the springs are a bit different, but haven't seen much comparison on the handling differences. Subarus historically understeer badly in my GenII Outback manual trans experience. But that is not a sporty car either, I get that. Still, it was bad and had stock alignment.

Early FR-S had softer springs in the front and stiffer in the rear compared to the BRZ, later FR-S and 86 I believe have similar or identical spring rates to the BRZ's of the same model year which changed from the '13-'14 iirc but I don't think anybody every published the rates on the newer models.

The real challenge is lack of camber up front regardless of which springs you have, the chassis and suspension are all the same design, if you are careful on corner entry and don't overdrive the grip available the car will feel great. If you're an idiot like me, you'll over-drive the car on corner entry and it will feel like garbage. Most cars off the showroom floor behave that way, car reviewers are used to driving around it and don't bad mouth any car for behaving that way. Slow in, fast out.

More camber up front in my experience means you can charge into a corner much harder before it starts understeering and reduces power-on understeer on corner exit. It's because of the MacPherson strut design and it affects just about everything from Ford Fiesta's to STI's to 911's that are designed with that suspension.

[re-animator]

do people really need to go that stiff with coilovers?? even with decent springs the car sits pretty stiff as consequence of being lowered and i get very minimal body roll, even in spirited driving. the downside of being so stiff is that it is way easier to lose traction in a corner. i have the eibach pro kit on stock dampers and it is really easy to kick out the back end, especially compared to stock which is already somewhat tail happy. just spit balling but i think my ideal track set up would probably include slightly lower spring rate, but offset by anti-sway bars.

[Shark_Bait88]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

It is not a coincidence that other car manufacturers use much bigger rear tires. Our cars have a squared setup and it is difficult to achieve more tail grip. You can try to use some indirect methods like playing with the alignment or using softer rear springs which provide more mechanical grip. A good solution is to use progressive rear springs which combine both of the words. Soft springs rates for better grip and harder rates to keep the body roll reasonable.

I'll propose again the Sachs performance coilovers. Not a very popular option in North American market, but with a huge reputation and extensive testing in Germany. Here is the TMG CS-V3 ZF car which was used in Nurburging for testing their performance clutch and coilovers:

This is the right answer. I slightly regret getting rid of mine. The quality of damping on them was excellent.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Shark_Bait88

This is the right answer. I slightly regret getting rid of mine. The quality of damping on them was excellent.

LOLLOLOLOL Sell!

[Shark_Bait88]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

LOLLOLOLOL Sell!

I mean, I made the right decision for what I want to do with the car but they did ride very well. haha