P0016 on a 60k mile car

[precurse]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

Read through the TSBs again. A few things.

1. The flow chart in 02-132-12 makes sense. I had seen it but stepped through it for the first time just now. I think there is a typo in the title because p0016 is discussed in the body of the document. I retract my statement about the instructions being written according to cost. Don't remember how I came to that conclusion in the first place but I'm over it.

2. If a sprocket assembly is replaced with another of the same part number, there is no need to replace the ECU.

3. I don't know if it's possible to replace the early sprocket with a later "improved" one, but if it can be done, it may explain the argument about whether or not the ECU must be swapped with the sprocket(s).

1. I assume there was a typo with that one as well. They *could* be referring to multiple codes, but I'm thinking it's a typo since P0018 is basically the same thing as a P0016, but on the opposite bank.

2. I still read this TCB as: Swap OCV -> Test Mode B -> (still an issue) -> Replace cam sprocket -> Test Mode B-> (MIL P0016 is on again) -> Replace ECM. -> Test Mode B.

Let me know if I'm not following the logic properly though

3. I'm wondering if all logic is in the sensor itself, or if the pickup was just pulled out. If you just replaced a single sprocket with the new generation version then you'd have mixed sprockets (and thus multiple types of wave forms). If each wave form was ECU specific, then I would think mixing at all wouldn't work.
I've also read that you can use 2014/15 ECMs on 2013s (without downgrading? but I'd have to double check), which would indicate to me that the ECM isn't tied to specific types of cam sprockets.

I could also be completely wrong, since I've only started looking into this issue within the last couple of weeks.


I'm at a crossroad here.. I've dropped $1300 already and really have had nothing done to fix the actual issue. All I know is this isn't a mechanical issue with the cam sprocket now. I could go ahead and try an $80 ECM off eBay, but it would wind up taking 2-3 weeks to get to me. Or I really pressure Subaru of Canada about how this much effort has been put onto this already and try to get the costs dropped. I'm beginning to wonder if they actually understand how to properly troubleshoot, or if they're just blindly following procedures and expecting a blank checkbook.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by precurse

1. I assume there was a typo with that one as well. They *could* be referring to multiple codes, but I'm thinking it's a typo since P0018 is basically the same thing as a P0016, but on the opposite bank.

2. I still read it as: Swap OCV -> Test Mode B -> (still an issue) -> Replace cam sprocket -> Test Mode B-> (MIL P0016 is on again) -> Replace ECM. -> Test Mode B.

Unless I'm reading that wrong?

3. I'm wondering if all logic is in the sensor itself, or if the pickup was just pulled out. If you just replaced a single sprocket with the new generation version then you'd have mixed sprockets (and thus multiple types of wave forms).
I've also read that you can use 2014/15 ECMs on 2013s (without downgrading? but I'd have to double check), so that would seem to me the ECM isn't tied to specific types of cam sprockets.

I could also be completely wrong, since I've only started looking into this issue within the last couple of weeks.

2. The flowchart is saying:
swap ocv > does the MIL follow the swap? If not, replace sprocket.

problem fixed? > no? > replace ECM.

3. Hmmm. I'm not sure what you mean by logic but the raw signal from the prox sensor is being conditioned. I say that because each sensor has 3 conductors. One is a signal common, the second is signal channel, and the third is power. None of them are shielded. The sensor part numbers are the same across all model years.

I agree with you about not mixing types of scales.

I can't find part numbers for the ECMs tonight. :/

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by precurse

I'm at a crossroad here.. I've dropped $1300 already and really have had nothing done to fix the actual issue. All I know is this isn't a mechanical issue with the cam sprocket now. I could go ahead and try an $80 ECM off eBay, but it would wind up taking 2-3 weeks to get to me. Or I really pressure Subaru of Canada about how this much effort has been put onto this already and try to get the costs dropped. I'm beginning to wonder if they actually understand how to properly troubleshoot, or if they're just blindly following procedures and expecting a blank checkbook.

Man, I have nothing to offer except that I feel your pain. It shouldn't be that complicated but I agree that you're likely dealing with mechanics that don't know how to perform logical troubleshooting much less read an oscilloscope.

[precurse]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

Man, I have nothing to offer except that I feel your pain. It shouldn't be that complicated but I agree that you're likely dealing with mechanics that don't know how to perform logical troubleshooting much less read an oscilloscope.

That's true. On the bright side, the worst thing it could be now is an ECU swap, which I can do for ~$80 and I can sleep at night knowing I can clear the CEL and still drive.

Come to think of it, I'm not sure if the tech was doing the "Test Mode B" to trigger the CEL again.. From the way he was explaining it, it sounded like he just took it for a standard road test and waited for the CEL to come back on. I hope this isn't true, but given their lack of competence up to this point, it wouldn't surprise me.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by precurse

I hope this isn't true, but given their lack of competence up to this point, it wouldn't surprise me.

*sigh*

[ApexEight]

I got P0016 on my 2014 BRZ Limited 6MT (build date 09/13) on Friday night. The car is at about 80K miles.

I've tried swapping cam sensors and OCVs but still get P0016. The car was a little low on oil and has almost 5K on it. I added some oil but it didn't help. Massaged both intake cam sprocket plunger things and they both felt smooth.

The car runs well and idles perfectly. Outside of the CEL, slip angle light, and the fact that it's in limp mode, you wouldn't be able to really tell that anything is wrong with the car.

So I guess at this point there are three things left to try: 1) try spacing the cam sensor with a shim, 2) replace cam sprocket, 3) replace ECU with one from a 2015-2016 model.

My questions:

For option 1, what is the part number for the shim? Do they only come in one size?

For option 2, what is the part number of the cam sprocket that I need? P0016 so it would be the intake cam on the passenger side.

For option 3, is there anything specific I need to look for/avoid in a 2015-2016 ECU? I've been looking on eBay and it looks like some of the are from RHD cars. Is that ok? I'll be sure to get one from a 6MT car and would prefer one from a BRZ Limited so I have no issues with any of the electronics. Other than installing the ECU and connecting the #4 and #13 pins on the OBD port and letting it do its thing, is there anything else I need to do to install?

Thanks

[steve99]

Originally Posted by ApexEight

I got P0016 on my 2014 BRZ Limited 6MT (build date 09/13) on Friday night. The car is at about 80K miles.

I've tried swapping cam sensors and OCVs but still get P0016. The car was a little low on oil and has almost 5K on it. I added some oil but it didn't help. Massaged both intake cam sprocket plunger things and they both felt smooth.

The car runs well and idles perfectly. Outside of the CEL, slip angle light, and the fact that it's in limp mode, you wouldn't be able to really tell that anything is wrong with the car.

So I guess at this point there are three things left to try: 1) try spacing the cam sensor with a shim, 2) replace cam sprocket, 3) replace ECU with one from a 2015-2016 model.

My questions:

For option 1, what is the part number for the shim? Do they only come in one size?

For option 2, what is the part number of the cam sprocket that I need? P0016 so it would be the intake cam on the passenger side.

For option 3, is there anything specific I need to look for/avoid in a 2015-2016 ECU? I've been looking on eBay and it looks like some of the are from RHD cars. Is that ok? I'll be sure to get one from a 6MT car and would prefer one from a BRZ Limited so I have no issues with any of the electronics. Other than installing the ECU and connecting the #4 and #13 pins on the OBD port and letting it do its thing, is there anything else I need to do to install?

Thanks

You will need to flash in correct ecu calibration to new ecu to match what was in old ecu.

If you can log commanded cam positions and actual position ie where sensor thinks cam is. Then compare the graphs as you run through rpm range, its somtimes pisdible to see the commanded and actual positions differ a lot this can indicate location of issue ie intake or exhaust bank 1 or 2

[ApexEight]

Got a Tactrix and flased B01C (was running on B00C...) and the P0016 came back. Sigh. Looking for a 2015-2016 FR-S/BRZ 6MT ECU now. Let me know if you guys know of any for sale. At least the car is still running well.

[Deep Six]

The P0016 code appeared once for me a couple weeks ago along with the slip angle light. However I had no perceptible loss of power and I cleared the code when I got home and it hasn't returned since. I only drive the car once or twice a week and about one track weekend per month. Fluke?

[rusty959]

Glad to see other people able to make use of this thread, but it sucks that this is becoming such a problem for so many just out of warranty.

For an update on my situation, I spent the last month of out of town so I'm just now back on it. I ended up taking mine to the dealer since I'm 160 miles and a few months out of warranty, hoping for some goodwill from Subaru. So far they have had it for 2 days and have now decided that it isn't OCV's (they swapped them again) and isn't the cam sensors because they swapped those and code still came back P0016. They now suspect the cam sprocket, which is what I've been suspecting.

I requested we make a case to subaru since its sorta in a TSB, even though they said they can't fully use that TSB because the revised version doesn't mention P0016. (I haven't looked at the revised version, only 02-132-12) We are still trying it anyway. The hardest thing might be proving service records since I do everything myself, and sometimes just bought oil/filter from autozone and thus have no real record of it.

On the crunchy VVT plunger thing, I did depress the button thing a few times for the sprocket in question, and it felt smooth.

[ApexEight]

Have you noticed a rough idle or any other drivability changes other than limp mode?

I'm in the same boat as you but am well out of warranty. I feel like if I had a bad sprocket it would be more evident. The car runs flawlessly. I have a 2015 ECU on the way that I'm going to try. Fingers crossed.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by rusty959

The hardest thing might be proving service records since I do everything myself, and sometimes just bought oil/filter from autozone and thus have no real record of it.

Some auto shops keep track of your purchases if you give them a phone number or maybe attached to your credit card. Pretty sure some people have been able to get receipts re-printed for exactly this reason.

[rusty959]

Originally Posted by ApexEight

Have you noticed a rough idle or any other drivability changes other than limp mode?

I'm in the same boat as you but am well out of warranty. I feel like if I had a bad sprocket it would be more evident. The car runs flawlessly. I have a 2015 ECU on the way that I'm going to try. Fingers crossed.

Yes, but it started when I installed the turbo kit, and I haven't noticed it in the 10 miles I've driven since I pulled the turbo, so it still could have been my turbo tune. First post in this thread shows a vid of my idle dip/stall issue.

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Some auto shops keep track of your purchases if you give them a phone number or maybe attached to your credit card. Pretty sure some people have been able to get receipts re-printed for exactly this reason.

That is a great idea, I will give this a try. I probably have record of 3/4 of the oil changes so hopefully that's enough to convince them I was on top of them, but more never hurts. In recent years I've been buying the OEM oil filters off amazon so that makes life easy.

[precurse]

For what it's worth...

I finally heard back from Subaru Canada and they will cover the ECU replacement under good-will warranty (after being just barely 4 months out).

I'm still not happy that it's been nearly a month and my local Subaru dealer has been jerking me around ($1250 later). But at least it's something.

I'm likely going to pressure my local dealer to eat some of the cost of the useless cam sprocket swap. They're claiming the sprocket can cause a "permanent" lockup in the ECU which needs it to be replaced. I'm calling BS on this, since I've read on here that others simply replacing the ECU and the problem goes away.

Hopefully mid-next week I'll have it back to normal.