P0016 on a 60k mile car

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by EigenGuy

Okay I'm with you now. So if I pull the intake OCVs, can I get a tool to stick into the sprocket valve and exercise it carefully just as the OCV solenoid rod would do? Maybe with some oil?

The entire thing lives bathed in oil. If you feel the crunchies, the only cure is to clean out the crunchies.

[EigenGuy]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

The entire thing lives bathed in oil. If you feel the crunchies, the only cure is to clean out the crunchies.

Well the cam sprocket actuators did not feel horrible. I wouldn’t say they were perfectly smooth either. When pushing slightly to one side and allowing to come out it felt like it was dragging on faint machining marks. Anyway, does anyone have the correct Subaru part number for the “updated” intake cam sprockets? Maybe also the orings and stuff needed for the job too?

[EigenGuy]

For reference...

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by EigenGuy

For reference...

Yup. That's it.

In my case while I played with the plungers, at first I felt complete interference. Then when I broke through that, I felt the machine mark crunchiness. After exercising a bit, the crunchiness went away completely.

The second time, we removed the OCV just so I could play with the valve. It was again crunchy and cleared up after playing with it.

Unless you observed the same machine-mark binding on the good valve (You did test a good one for reference, right?) I believe your issue is rooted in physical contamination of the VVT mechanism.

[precurse]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

Guys, I can't stress enough the value in manually working the valve on the sprocket itself. Pull the OCV (solenoid) from both a good and bad cam and feel for a difference.

Start with a good one to get a feel for how it bottoms out. Then compare it to the bad one. Be gentle and look for a difference in travel and how it feels when bottoming out. In my case I distinctly felt some crap in there interfering with the plunger.

It's easy and conclusive.

I'm bringing the car into Subaru in under an hour, but I'll make sure to get full details on what they've already troubleshooted when it was in last week and that they've done everything they can before pulling the timing cover. I hope they've already tried swapping the OCVs and updated the ECU.

What a shit show.


--- Update ---

So I spoke to the tech that worked on my car.. He did swap the sensors and the OCV, but wasn't able to resolve it with that method. They're going to go ahead with the sprocket change and I'm hoping Subaru Canada will help cover some of the costs of the repair (being 4 months out of powertrain warranty), but I'm not holding my breath.

[precurse]

Originally Posted by EigenGuy

Please let us know if the sprocket change does the trick. I have a 2013 and am going through the same thing. So far I've replaced the OCVs, cam sensors, ECM (used), and engine oil about 6 times. I've also shimmed both sensors to .052" per the TSB. I guess the next step is cam sprockets, but like you said it's expensive. I'm still logging P0018 and P0016.

By the way, I ended up ordering a $75 used 2013 ECM and changing the VIN number using techstream. Wasn't too difficult as long as you can find a laptop with Windows XP. I am using ECUtek to load in ROM files though.

Which seller did you purchase through? Each of the sellers I've contacted said that the ECM wasn't neutralized from the immobilizer before being pulled. They've said that the ECM may need to be flashed by a dealer, but I don't think flashing it will even remove the stored key ID since it's possibly stored in another chip? Plus, no shop around here will even touch a second hand ECM from the sounds of it. They've all told me that the ECM is tied specifically to a VIN and cannot be changed. From the forum posts this isn't true, but that doesn't change the fact that they refuse to touch one.

According to this post, http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...59&postcount=4 the immobilizer won't allow the engine to start if the key ID stored in the ECM doesn't match.

If the sprocket change doesn't resolve, then I'll need to look into a new ECM.. But I don't want to dish out $100 on an ECM if there's a chance it's tied to a completely different key fob that I don't have.

[EigenGuy]

Originally Posted by precurse

Which seller did you purchase through? Each of the sellers I've contacted said that the ECM wasn't neutralized from the immobilizer before being pulled. They've said that the ECM may need to be flashed by a dealer, but I don't think flashing it will even remove the stored key ID since it's possibly stored in another chip? Plus, no shop around here will even touch a second hand ECM from the sounds of it. They've all told me that the ECM is tied specifically to a VIN and cannot be changed. From the forum posts this isn't true, but that doesn't change the fact that they refuse to touch one.

According to this post, http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...59&postcount=4 the immobilizer won't allow the engine to start if the key ID stored in the ECM doesn't match.

If the sprocket change doesn't resolve, then I'll need to look into a new ECM.. But I don't want to dish out $100 on an ECM if there's a chance it's tied to a completely different key fob that I don't have.

I purchased my used ECM from vaps941 on ebay. There are plenty others though. The part listed the VIN number so I ran the history and it looked like it came out of a wrecked car in Florida. I then followed the thread below to replace it, put it in comms mode by looping 4 and 13 with a paperclip, then used Techstream to change the VIN number.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102810

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by precurse

I'm bringing the car into Subaru in under an hour, but I'll make sure to get full details on what they've already troubleshooted when it was in last week and that they've done everything they can before pulling the timing cover. I hope they've already tried swapping the OCVs and updated the ECU.

What a shit show.

~~~edit 20180120~~~
This first sentence is way off base.

It's what happens when the manufacturer defines a troubleshooting process based strictly on cost. I'm surprised that Subaru still struggles with these because the more experienced mechanics have seen the same issue in previous boxer engines.

Then again, like Tcoat often says, we only discuss the disasters here. Nobody posts about their wonderful, painless experiences. :/

[precurse]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

It's what happens when the manufacturer defines a troubleshooting process based strictly on cost. I'm surprised that Subaru still struggles with these because the more experienced mechanics have seen the same issue in previous boxer engines.

Then again, like Tcoat often says, we only discuss the disasters here. Nobody posts about their wonderful, painless experiences. :/

Agreed.. It's rather disappointing. I love the car and haven't had a single mechanical issue since I bought it in 2012.

There's nothing I've neglected about maintenance and even had a Used Oil Analysis done this past summer which came up perfect. Then the service manager tried to pin this issue on maintenance neglect, even with UOA, filter and oil purchases all documented.

Sigh...

Fingers crossed that the sprocket change fixes it.. Should be hearing from them any time now.

[EigenGuy]

Originally Posted by precurse

Agreed.. It's rather disappointing. I love the car and haven't had a single mechanical issue since I bought it in 2012.

There's nothing I've neglected about maintenance and even had a Used Oil Analysis done this past summer which came up perfect. Then the service manager tried to pin this issue on maintenance neglect, even with UOA, filter and oil purchases all documented.

Sigh...

Fingers crossed that the sprocket change fixes it.. Should be hearing from them any time now.

Do you mind checking to see what part number cam sprockets they used? I'd like to know if they are using 13320AA070 and 13322AA080 or the older 13320AA021 and 13322AA031. A list of other parts used would be awesome too if you have it available.

[precurse]

Originally Posted by EigenGuy

Do you mind checking to see what part number cam sprockets they used? I'd like to know if they are using 13320AA070 and 13322AA080 or the older 13320AA021 and 13322AA031. A list of other parts used would be awesome too if you have it available.

It appears that they used the 13320AA021 sprocket.

$1200 later, the CEL is still throwing up a P0016 code. The actual tech mentioned that he spoke with Subaru tech line and they insisted the ECU didn't need to be changed with the camshaft sprocket. One of the service guys claims that the ECU always needs to be changed with the sprocket change, which I find pretty stupid if true.

The Subaru tech line is off for the week, so he could only gather data to send to them next Tuesday. As per the TSB, however, I think they're just going to suggest an ECU replacement.

[EigenGuy]

Originally Posted by EigenGuy

Do you mind checking to see what part number cam sprockets they used? I'd like to know if they are using 13320AA070 and 13322AA080 or the older 13320AA021 and 13322AA031. A list of other parts used would be awesome too if you have it available.

It looks like Subaru changed the cam sensor pickup from a valley to a peak. I wonder if this is the key change needed?

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by EigenGuy

It looks like Subaru changed the cam sensor pickup from a valley to a peak. I wonder if this is the key change needed?

Knowing a little about the tech, I can see where this change in the scale would work better. Whether or not the ECU needs to be changed depends on whether or not the important side of the waveform (rising or falling) created by the new encoder matches what the original ECU expects to see. This is a good question.

I hope that would be taken into account but can just as easily picture it being changed on purpose as part of a broader improvement in the encoder circuit.

[Ultramaroon]

Read through the TSBs again. A few things.

1. The flow chart in 02-132-12 makes sense. I had seen it but stepped through it for the first time just now. I think there is a typo in the title because p0016 is discussed in the body of the document. I retract my statement about the instructions being written according to cost. Don't remember how I came to that conclusion in the first place but I'm over it.

~~~edit 20180120~~~
yeah, this might be wrong too. The ECU may still need to be replaced for other reasons.

2. If a sprocket assembly is replaced with another of the same part number, there is no need to replace the ECU.

3. I don't know if it's possible to replace the early sprocket with a later "improved" one, but if it can be done, it may explain the argument about whether or not the ECU must be swapped with the sprocket(s).