Subaru Testing a BRZ with STI Badging and a Big Wing

[Ganthrithor]

Originally Posted by Pat

Your car had a CEL light due to hot oil caused by driving in a canyon? That's tough for me to believe assuming there was nothing else wrong/modified with your car.
In 55k miles and about 40 track days on my car I've never had a CEL.

In fairness, I'm assuming the issue was temperature. It felt like engine power was degrading over the course of the drive, but since I was climbing a mountain I initially dismissed it as being the result of the change in density altitude (~90F at ~6000' MSL-- probably a DA of 9-10k feet). About 2/3's of the way up, a CEL light popped on, so I went up to sixth and just cruised the little plateau I was on at a low power setting / RPM and high speed in order to cool things down. I'm assuming it was an oil temperature issue since the cars are known for getting extremely high oil temps when pushed hard. There's no oil temperature gauge, but coolant temperature showed a completely normal indication, and IIRC there is a low oil pressure idiot light on this car, but it never illuminated. The CEL persisted for the drive home but was gone at the next cold start.

The powerplant is completely unmodified, the car has never thrown a CEL before or since. In fairness, I was driving absolutely flat out with only momentary lifts of the throttle to turn into corners for at least 20-30 minutes before the light came on. I'm guessing most tracks aren't that hard on cars.

Originally Posted by nikitopo

Modern engines are not build so tight in order to reduce internal friction. The tension in piston rings and valve guides is smaller and bigger amount of oil can flow between the parts. This the reason modern engines have a tendency to burn more oil. It is a design feature and not a fault. I cannot imagine why a thicker oil would be worse comparing to the early days. In fact, there are cases were manufacturers suggested gradually to use thinner oils on old engine architectures. The only reason using a thinner oil is for better fuel consumption. If you want to play on the safe side, use an oil that in cold conditions is closer to the initial specs like a 5w40 grade.

I may give this a go on the next oil change.

[chaoskaze]

Originally Posted by Ganthrithor

In fairness, I'm assuming the issue was temperature. It felt like engine power was degrading over the course of the drive, but since I was climbing a mountain I initially dismissed it as being the result of the change in density altitude (~90F at ~6000' MSL-- probably a DA of 9-10k feet). About 2/3's of the way up, a CEL light popped on, so I went up to sixth and just cruised the little plateau I was on at a low power setting / RPM and high speed in order to cool things down. I'm assuming it was an oil temperature issue since the cars are known for getting extremely high oil temps when pushed hard. There's no oil temperature gauge, but coolant temperature showed a completely normal indication, and IIRC there is a low oil pressure idiot light on this car, but it never illuminated. The CEL persisted for the drive home but was gone at the next cold start.



I may give this a go on the next oil change.

How hard were you pushing and where were you?

Did you drive with windows down & see if you can spot any different in the noise the engine makes?


There is this one time at GMR that I actually notice it sounding different when i rev it "after keep it near the top for like the entire way up & down the gmr for like 25 min ish?"



Pull my car to the side of road and let it idle for like 5 -10 mins & it went back to sounding normal.......then i drove off the mountain and had protein style in & out burger cuz it was scary.

[Ganthrithor]

Originally Posted by chaoskaze

How hard were you pushing and where were you?

Did you drive with windows down & see if you can spot any different in the noise the engine makes?

I was out on a long-ass drive day with some friends. We took hwy 33 over the mountains from Ojai, Hudson Ranch Rd out to Frazier Park, and then Lockwood Valley Rd back to hwy 33, over the hill again back to Ojai. By the time we were headed back over the mountains it was mid-afternoon and it had gotten hot. I was trying to keep up with a 991 GT3 and a 993 (and by keep up, I mean make it back to Ojai on the same day :P). I was all warmed up after a half-day of driving and I know highway 33 like the back of my hand, so I was going pretty much as fast as the car could go on the uphill sections (easily done on an incline at high DA where you've got minimal engine performance to begin with)-- like I said, pretty much WOT between 5k and redline the entire way up the mountain except for lifts to settle the front end coming into the corners. Top of second --> first bit of third --> repeat.

Unfortunately I don't think I was the only thing that was warmed up :P

I didn't notice any difference in noise. The car seemed to run completely normally (except for the engine feeling weak-- but as I said, it was probably the altitude and temperature: there was no sudden / noticeable change in engine performance associated with the CEL).

It did shake my confidence in the car a bit. Part of the reason I bought my 997 was so that I could have something I could drive flat out without turning it into an aftermarket science project. I'll do suspension mods all day long, but I didn't want to mess with the engine on the BRZ back in '15 when I still had a lot of warranty left. These days I'm inclined to stick a supercharger, oil cooler, and some means of monitoring T's and P's on the car. I heard the Jackson Racing supercharger kit has a bit of boost push when you lift off the throttle though, which I'm not wild about. I'm also of two minds as to whether adding power to the car is a good idea at all: it's slow on hills and doesn't have the torque to do big filthy powerslides all the time, but being able to drive it flat-footed all over the place has its charms.

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by Ganthrithor

I was out on a long-ass drive day with some friends. We took hwy 33 over the mountains from Ojai, Hudson Ranch Rd out to Frazier Park, and then Lockwood Valley Rd back to hwy 33, over the hill again back to Ojai. By the time we were headed back over the mountains it was mid-afternoon and it had gotten hot. I was trying to keep up with a 991 GT3 and a 993 (and by keep up, I mean make it back to Ojai on the same day :P). I was all warmed up after a half-day of driving and I know highway 33 like the back of my hand, so I was going pretty much as fast as the car could go on the uphill sections (easily done on an incline at high DA where you've got minimal engine performance to begin with)-- like I said, pretty much WOT between 5k and redline the entire way up the mountain except for lifts to settle the front end coming into the corners. Top of second --> first bit of third --> repeat.

Unfortunately I don't think I was the only thing that was warmed up :P

I didn't notice any difference in noise. The car seemed to run completely normally (except for the engine feeling weak-- but as I said, it was probably the altitude and temperature: there was no sudden / noticeable change in engine performance associated with the CEL).

It did shake my confidence in the car a bit. Part of the reason I bought my 997 was so that I could have something I could drive flat out without turning it into an aftermarket science project. I'll do suspension mods all day long, but I didn't want to mess with the engine on the BRZ back in '15 when I still had a lot of warranty left. These days I'm inclined to stick a supercharger, oil cooler, and some means of monitoring T's and P's on the car. I heard the Jackson Racing supercharger kit has a bit of boost push when you lift off the throttle though, which I'm not wild about. I'm also of two minds as to whether adding power to the car is a good idea at all: it's slow on hills and doesn't have the torque to do big filthy powerslides all the time, but being able to drive it flat-footed all over the place has its charms.

Even a stock STI cannot keep up with these Porsche's :P. Subaru is supposed to be a good brand with a rally heritage, but they cannot compete on the highest performance segment.

If you 're considering doing a power upgrade to your BRZ, I would suggest to do it right and do it once. You'll need to open the engine and change the internals with forged ones and reduce the compression rate. Then you can install a supercharger. Another option is to try the 2.3 stroker kit from Toda and stay NA. You'll have all the advantages of NA and more torque. Check if these guys can provide an offer: info@todaracingusa.com

[Ganthrithor]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

Even a stock STI cannot keep up with these Porsche's :P. Subaru is supposed to be a good brand with a rally heritage, but they cannot compete on the highest performance segment.

If you 're considering doing a power upgrade to your BRZ, I would suggest to do it right and do it once. You'll need to open the engine and change the internals with forged ones and reduce the compression rate. Then you can install a supercharger. Another option is to try the 2.3 stroker kit from Toda and stay NA. You'll have all the advantages of NA and more torque. Check if these guys can provide an offer: info@todaracingusa.com

Haha, there's almost nothing that will keep up with a 991 GT3. It's very fast. I wasn't actually trying to match the GT3's pace But it did mean that I could drive as fast as I cared to. Usually if I'm out with other people I drive a relaxed pace because they're not as familiar with the road.

I don't think I'm going to do any significant engine work to the BRZ. I'll probably just keep it on tiny tyres to keep it slippery and continue saving pennies for a 997 GT3.

I do think that the BRZ with a little flat six from a Cayman or something would be absolute perfection... ~300 hp, a bit more torque, and beautiful sounds. I'm kind of surprised nobody's done it given the number of weird and wonderful engine swap projects people have done on this platform. Maybe Sharkwerks could build me a GT3 engine with smaller bores and a way shorter stroke so I could end up with significantly less horsepower and a 10k rpm redline. That would be fun in a BRZ :P

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

There is a particular reason for the heavy depreciation. You'll have an increased maintenance cost. Factory parts will be hard to find and there is always the additional working labour. There is a big difference changing just the oil or other fluids and maintaining an old car.

Except that in the case of a Porsche sports car, neither is really true. Porsches are well built to a higher quality than (most) BMW or Mercedes vehicles. Long term maintenance isn't very daunting. I'm close to 100k miles with mine and under my ownership it's been to the dealership once. And parts will never be difficult to locate because Porsche never stops building and selling parts for all its sports cars.

Originally Posted by Ganthrithor

Sort of? I mean, the BRZ is an exceptionally cheap car to maintain-- I'll grant you that. Even buying bits from the dealer, my last oil change cost less than $50. The same thing on my 911 cost me $200 (although I bought some tools and stuff which will be one-time purchases in addition to the consumables).

What did you spend $200 on? All I had to buy for changing the oil in my 987 was the Porsche oil filter wrench. And for me a typical oil change is roughly $75 ($50 worth of MobilOne [9 quarts] & $25 for filter).

Originally Posted by Ganthrithor

But beyond consumables costing a bit more, there's really not a huge difference between operating the Porsche and the Subaru. Neither one has been tearing through things like brakes or tyres. The Porsche actually costs less to insure than the BRZ. Unless you explode something on the car, the 911 doesn't cost that much more. And it sounds like more of these super-tuned econoboxes are prone to exploding. I'll say this for the 911: you really don't need to worry about driving it hard. Even the BRZ I don't drive flat out in the mountains anymore because it really needs an oil cooler to keep up. Cheaper cars just aren't designed to actually get driven quickly for more than a few minutes at a time, and the required retrofits aren't free either.

I agree that the BRZ should have an oil cooler. I feel like its just an example of Subaru or Toyota cheaping out on the car. Even my 25 year old GS-R has an external oil cooler!

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

Except that in the case of a Porsche sports car, neither is really true. Porsches are well built to a higher quality than (most) BMW or Mercedes vehicles. Long term maintenance isn't very daunting. I'm close to 100k miles with mine and under my ownership it's been to the dealership once. And parts will never be difficult to locate because Porsche never stops building and selling parts for all its sports cars.



What did you spend $200 on? All I had to buy for changing the oil in my 987 was the Porsche oil filter wrench. And for me a typical oil change is roughly $75 ($50 worth of MobilOne [9 quarts] & $25 for filter).



I agree that the BRZ should have an oil cooler. I feel like its just an example of Subaru or Toyota cheaping out on the car. Even my 25 year old GS-R has an external oil cooler!

Like every car the horror stories prevail over the good news. There is no denying there are thousands of horror stories about expensive repairs and maintenance for Porsches out there. People tend to ignore that all those horror stories are probably 2% of the cars and they are only reading the complainer's version of the tale of woe.
If I were to just read the complaints about the Twins on here and take every word written as the gospel truth ("I have NEVER over revved and have no clue why the car threw a rod") there is not a hope in hell I would have bought one since it appears there are nothing but problems with most of them. Very far from the reality and the same applies to Porsche.

[dowroa]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Like every car the horror stories prevail over the good news. There is no denying there are thousands of horror stories about expensive repairs and maintenance for Porsches out there. People tend to ignore that all those horror stories are probably 2% of the cars and they are only reading the complainer's version of the tale of woe.
If I were to just read the complaints about the Twins on here and take every word written as the gospel truth ("I have NEVER over revved and have no clue why the car threw a rod") there is not a hope in hell I would have bought one since it appears there are nothing but problems with most of them. Very far from the reality and the same applies to Porsche.

Indeed, but the cost of parts is higher. The car does go faster and will wear its wear items quicker. The cost of rubber will be more expensive.

Fast cars, like Porsche, are nice. But, even a free car, like a Porsche, that only requires general maintenance will still cost more to run than a car with less expensive consumables.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by dowroa

Indeed, but the cost of parts is higher. The car does go faster and will wear its wear items quicker. The cost of rubber will be more expensive.

Fast cars, like Porsche, are nice. But, even a free car, like a Porsche, that only requires general maintenance will still cost more to run than a car with less expensive consumables.

Completely true but as odd as it sounds how expensive something may be is actually subjective. If you are able to easily able to afford an expensive car (not scrimp and save) then the expected higher cost of operating that car should be compatible with your funds and not be a burden. To a person that is able to easily afford the extra costs it is no worse that somebody paying the lesser costs for a lesser car. The only time it is an issue is when somebody tries to operate a car that is beyond their means.

[dowroa]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Completely true but as odd as it sounds how expensive something may be is actually subjective. If you are able to easily able to afford an expensive car (not scrimp and save) then the expected higher cost of operating that car should be compatible with your funds and not be a burden. To a person that is able to easily afford the extra costs it is no worse that somebody paying the lesser costs for a lesser car. The only time it is an issue is when somebody tries to operate a car that is beyond their means.

I will need to go back to the original point of this thread at some point, but one last personal data point.

I own a c5z06. Parts are relatively inexpensive ($80 for oem rotors per, ~$50-60 per pad, tires are about $300 each), and I make a modest engineering salary.

However, once I personally had experienced the faster car, I would go back to my roots of slower cars that are just less expensive to maintain. For me, there is less to worry about and more driving.

For me, being able to drive to the limits of the car does mean something. Better basic engineering and parts are important to me... but not at the cost of being able to drive the car as I would want.

Also, the logistics of replacement car cost, insurance, property insurance and other "secondary costs" have to be considered.

To bring it all back around, I am considering a tS (even though the autoXer in my knows a base car modified is the same and cheaper) instead of "faster" cars. It depends on intent and goals.

Keeping up isn't always the best thing. Getting behind the wheel and seeing what is fun is important. The checkbook and ease of doing it should always be considered.

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Like every car the horror stories prevail over the good news. There is no denying there are thousands of horror stories about expensive repairs and maintenance for Porsches out there. People tend to ignore that all those horror stories are probably 2% of the cars and they are only reading the complainer's version of the tale of woe.
If I were to just read the complaints about the Twins on here and take every word written as the gospel truth ("I have NEVER over revved and have no clue why the car threw a rod") there is not a hope in hell I would have bought one since it appears there are nothing but problems with most of them. Very far from the reality and the same applies to Porsche.

Very true! If I couldn't perform easy to moderating difficult maint items myself I would be singing another tune. Call it the asterisk, haha. I was quoted $1200 to replace the front brakes (rotors, pads, sensors, etc). Did it myself for less than $600. I'm sure that the quote for a new timing belt and water pump is even more hilarious.

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

Very true! If I couldn't perform easy to moderating difficult maint items myself I would be singing another tune. Call it the asterisk, haha. I was quoted $1200 to replace the front brakes (rotors, pads, sensors, etc). Did it myself for less than $600. I'm sure that the quote for a new timing belt and water pump is even more hilarious.

And now you are back to my initial argument . Most people don't have the necessary knowledge and/or the tools ...

[funwheeldrive]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

And now you are back to my initial argument . Most people don't have the necessary knowledge and/or the tools ...

True, but taking a BRZ for a full brake service at a dealership is still relatively expensive compared to DIY. Sure, it might not be $1200, but it will still closer to $700 probably after materials and such.

Not a massive difference considering it's a job that only needs to be done every couple of years.

Cars are going to be a relatively expensive hobby regardless of the make and model, especially when you don't do the work yourself.

[Ganthrithor]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

What did you spend $200 on? All I had to buy for changing the oil in my 987 was the Porsche oil filter wrench. And for me a typical oil change is roughly $75 ($50 worth of MobilOne [9 quarts] & $25 for filter).

The ~*FANCIEST*~ oil, the fanciest German filter, a magnetic drain plug, filter housing removal tool, drain pan, and some hand tool attachments. The oil was pretty pricey and I bought more quarts than I needed:

11 qts Total Quartz 9000: $110
Filter + gasket: $30
Drain plug: $30
Drain container: $16
Hex bit for plug removal: $4
Oil filter housing tool: $6
=========
Total: $196

Obviously most of these are one-time expenses and I could get a cheaper oil next time. I could probably also save some money buying stuff off the internet instead of from my local shop, but I like the guys at my local shop

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Completely true but as odd as it sounds how expensive something may be is actually subjective. If you are able to easily able to afford an expensive car (not scrimp and save) then the expected higher cost of operating that car should be compatible with your funds and not be a burden. To a person that is able to easily afford the extra costs it is no worse that somebody paying the lesser costs for a lesser car. The only time it is an issue is when somebody tries to operate a car that is beyond their means.

Exactly what I mean when people start talking about hypothetical $40k performance variants of the BRZ-- the BRZ makes a ton of sense at its current price point (I don't even mind things like it lacking an oil cooler at that price, because hey-- it's a budget sportscar). But if you're gonna spend $40k you suddenly have a lot more options, and I'm not sure the BRZ is the best one anymore. You could buy a nice 997 or Cayman and have a bunch of cash leftover for running costs at $40k. Or you could spend some time searching and buy the right used 86 with basically anything you could want (look at all the 350hp turbo builds going for low 30's) for that amount if you're dead-set on an 86.

IDK. A $40k factory BRZ just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Not without a completely different engine, anyway.