Twins future question

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by imnotsureaboutbrz

But I will say this... In 16-20 years it will be hard to find an original, unmodified m/t Brz/86...

Depends on what you classify as "modded". There will be loads out there with different wheels, exhausts and shift knobs. There will probably be just as many that are bone stock with some really nice paint on the hood and roof since it was covered in plastidip. The heavily modded cars are the exception not the rule no matter how it appears o the internet. There will not be a shortage unless we all of a sudden find they rot out after 5 years or something like that.

[Subsonic]

People who frequent forums like this one see only their own and modified versions of this car on the road. Where I live, I see many BRZ / 86's and almost none are modified. When shopping for my car second hand, all those advertised in Facebook or other enthusiast sources are modified. Those on the standard commercial sites are overwhelmingly not. See the pattern?

Michael.

[Spuds]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Everybody looks at the space and says "loads of room". Would it pass a crash test with that space filled? How about the maximum permitted damage value at 10 mph crash test? Did you even know there WAS a maximum permitted damage value crash test? There is, I assure you. How does the space that your SC or the FA20 that "drops right in" takes up effect the pedestrian impact hood buffer? Does it have any effect on the partial frontal crash limits? Did you crash test a car with your exact set up to determine it could be imported into the USA with your SC on it? How would a larger displacement/FI engine impact their ability to ship the car to other markets? Did you know that Europe did not get the 5hp increase because of emissions? That was only a 5hp increase! How are Toyota and Subaru using the carbon credits that they would save on this car? Should they up the displacement and FI it and drop the size of the engines in the Tacoma and WRX in order to balance their credits.

There are probably a thousand or more other considerations that people do not know or care about when they start changing up engines so there is much more to it than they don't want to increase the cost of the car.

Is it your opinion, then, that there will not be second generation of the 86/BRZ? If they make any changes to the car worth calling it a "second generation" they will have to do all of the certifications again anyway. As I mentioned in my first post in this thread, I don't see Toyota and Subaru agreeing on a path forward any time soon, if at all. The market might just not be big enough for them to overcome their respective differences/egos.

IF they do agree to develop gen-2, it would likely be a merge of two technologies that aren't mutually shared between the brands. While the most obvious trade is power plant tech (turbo and electric hybrid), there are undoubtedly more capabilities one has that the other does not.

That being said, don't let me put a damper on the speculative fun! Twin Turboshaft Electric Hybrid anyone?

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Spuds

Is it your opinion, then, that there will not be second generation of the 86/BRZ? If they make any changes to the car worth calling it a "second generation" they will have to do all of the certifications again anyway. As I mentioned in my first post in this thread, I don't see Toyota and Subaru agreeing on a path forward any time soon, if at all. The market might just not be big enough for them to overcome their respective differences/egos.

IF they do agree to develop gen-2, it would likely be a merge of two technologies that aren't mutually shared between the brands. While the most obvious trade is power plant tech (turbo and electric hybrid), there are undoubtedly more capabilities one has that the other does not.

That being said, don't let me put a damper on the speculative fun! Twin Turboshaft Electric Hybrid anyone?

I try to base my opinions on fact and what I have seen of 3 decades in the manufacturing business. I have said many times that if there is going to be a second gen they already started planning it back about three years ago. The differences and egos will have little to do with it as it will be a business decision made by a board not by a couple of individual representatives of each company. I would not ever predict them going their separate ways with the model. It will remain the two or die. There is a lot of hype around one person with these cars but he didn't even start the original program but was brought in to lead once it was envisioned. There was more than just projected sales numbers behind the birth of this car and if the business case still supports the plan then they will make something as a second gen. We are not privy to that business case nor plan and anybody that truly is will not open their mouth beyond authorized statements.

Yes, if they make substantial changes they will have to do all the certifications again. It costs millions to do those tests and certifications so if they decide they are going to make changes they will want their money's worth. This will probably lead to them either making some relatively small changes in structure, or, using a platform that is already in the line up (i.e. the new Impreza global platform), or, starting fresh with a whole new structural design. I can't see them starting all over since that would cost by far the most. Minor changes would not truly make it a new gen so for the sake of argument that is not really the talking point here. This leaves us with the most likely scenario of using another platform. I find it interesting that they used some of the BRZ parts in the new Impreza platform since this means that the components have now become parts bin material and that opens up many possibilities. On the other hand they have already officially stated that the next gen WK and Sti will be on that platform so would they use it for the Twins as well?

All in all my personal speculation is "I don't have a clue" what they plan at this point but I will predict that if they follow every other trend with this type of car that the marketing crowd will have more say and it will grow bigger and fancier and lose some of it's original purpose in life.

[JD001]

Originally Posted by Spuds

Is it your opinion, then, that there will not be second generation of the 86/BRZ? If they make any changes to the car worth calling it a "second generation" they will have to do all of the certifications again anyway. As I mentioned in my first post in this thread, I don't see Toyota and Subaru agreeing on a path forward any time soon, if at all. The market might just not be big enough for them to overcome their respective differences/egos.

IF they do agree to develop gen-2, it would likely be a merge of two technologies that aren't mutually shared between the brands. While the most obvious trade is power plant tech (turbo and electric hybrid), there are undoubtedly more capabilities one has that the other does not.

That being said, don't let me put a damper on the speculative fun! Twin Turboshaft Electric Hybrid anyone?

Toyota is jumping in bed with BMW so I think the Toybaru marriage is coming to an end... Will Subaru sail the BRZeee ship alone?? I don't think so therefore the end is near for our beloved car.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by JD001

Toyota is jumping in bed with BMW so I think the Toybaru marriage is coming to an end... Will Subaru sail the BRZeee ship alone?? I don't think so therefore the end is near for our beloved car.

No, the car companies are not monogamous and just because they sleep with one for one car doesn't mean they can't sleep with another on a different one. Toyota currently sleeps with Suzuki, Mazda, Subaru, BMW and have been know to at least make out with a few more. Toyota is sort of a slut really.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

No, the car companies are not monogamous and just because they sleep with one for one car doesn't mean they can't sleep with another on a different one. Toyota currently sleeps with Suzuki, Mazda, Subaru, BMW and have been know to at least make out with a few more. Toyota is sort of a slut really.

Yea, I've owned another of their bastard children (GM "Geo Prizm"/Corolla) which really was a good car, despite being grape popsicle purple (MomHawk's car, her choice).

[Yardjass]

The arrangement that was had with the prizm is nothing like a twin. If a twin was like a prizm, one of the two companies would have had nothing to do with the design and manufacturing of the vehicle, and would have merely been licensed to make some profit selling them after they slapped their own badge on them.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Yardjass

The arrangement that was had with the prizm is nothing like a twin. If a twin was like a prizm, one of the two companies would have had nothing to do with the design and manufacturing of the vehicle, and would have merely been licensed to make some profit selling them after they slapped their own badge on them.

That's over simplifying the GM/Toyota arrangement on these cars, as GM was involved in the design and the manufacturing of the cars although not to the level of Subaru/Toyota, but OK.

[JD001]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

No, the car companies are not monogamous and just because they sleep with one for one car doesn't mean they can't sleep with another on a different one. Toyota currently sleeps with Suzuki, Mazda, Subaru, BMW and have been know to at least make out with a few more. Toyota is sort of a slut really.

Toyoslut has a certain ring to it..

[Yardjass]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

That's over simplifying the GM/Toyota arrangement on these cars, as GM was involved in the design and the manufacturing of the cars although not to the level of Subaru/Toyota, but OK.

GM was not involved in the design and manufacture of the Toyota Corolla, but OK. Just like Toyota did not design the Cavalier but badged and sold it as a Toyota in Japan.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Yardjass

GM was not involved in the design and manufacture of the Toyota Corolla, but OK. Just like Toyota did not design the Cavalier but badged and sold it as a Toyota in Japan.

"The Geo/Chevrolet Prizm (Chevrolet Prizm starting 1997) was a compact car derived from the Japanese domestic market Toyota Sprinter, itself a version of the Toyota Corolla, and jointly developed by Toyota and General Motors. Produced from 1988 to 2002, the Prizm was sold exclusively in the United States and succeeded the 1985–1988 Chevrolet Nova, which was also derived from the Sprinter.
All Prizms were built at NUMMI (New United Motor Manufacturing, Inc), a joint venture company between Toyota and General Motors in Fremont, California.
Production concluded in 2002, and the Prizm was replaced by the Pontiac Vibe, also related to the Corolla and produced at NUMMI.

[Yardjass]

Wikipedia is not a source. However, if it was and if, by "jointly developed", they mean Toyota designed the entire car and then GM had to painstakingly design and fit geo/bowtie badges, a different radio, and several other non-essential parts, that have zero impact on what makes it the car that it is then sure, "jointly developed".


The twins are well documented as having been designed jointly by Toyota and Subaru, with each company contributing major parts to the vehicle and being involved and inter-connected throughout the design process. General Motors did not design any part of the Corolla, or the Suzuki Swift, or the Sidekick. They merely had involvement with that joint factory and were licensed to build and sell them as their own.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Yardjass

Wikipedia is not a source. However, if it was and if, by "jointly developed", they mean Toyota designed the entire car and then GM had to painstakingly design and fit geo/bowtie badges, a different radio, and several other non-essential parts, that have zero impact on what makes it the car that it is then sure, "jointly developed".


The twins are well documented as having been designed jointly by Toyota and Subaru, with each company contributing major parts to the vehicle and being involved and inter-connected throughout the design process. General Motors did not design any part of the Corolla, or the Suzuki Swift, or the Sidekick. They merely had involvement with that joint factory and were licensed to build and sell them as their own.

A joint venture is a joint venture.
Do you have something to show that GM did not have any part at all in the development of the car? You have no more idea how much GM contributed to the car than I do since we are not employed there.
I say GM designed the whole thing and Toyota just ran with it for the Corolla.