Preferred downshifting method?

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by covance

Holy shit lol this thread got nasty

I found this website that I think does a good job of explaining rev matching with diagrams etc:

http://www.drivingfast.net/car-control/rev-matching.htm

People who do it - agree with the way it is laid out on this webpage?




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This is really nicely explained and illustrated. Perfect. Thanks for sharing!

[soulreapersteve]

Originally Posted by chaoskaze

Wait, before I read everything. There is more then 1 way to downshift rev match? 😂


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

YUP!

Move the gear selector over to "M" and do it yourself (telling the computer to do it) or pull the left paddle (still telling to computer to do it).




[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsYIXNBENVY"]2013 Scion FR-S | Dynamic Rev Management Explained - YouTube[/ame]

[extrashaky]

Originally Posted by ButeraFRS

So let me understand this properly. You truly believe that using rev match downshifting as your MAIN method for slowing the vehicle down, does not cause undue and unnecessary wear on the clutch in comparison to the person who only uses the friction material of their clutch, or hell even the throw out bearing, --and thus in turn by definition wears be it slightly or dramatically-- when getting the car to go in first, shifting up and the occasional downshift on a turn (assuming said person is not driving MT improperly) ?

If the answer to that is yes, and if you practice that (not saying you do), I'll gladly see you at the transmission shop when I'm getting my first clutch changed after 200k km and you're on your third clutch.

I'm glad I actually had work to do this afternoon during all this, because I just read that mess three times and still can't figure out what the hell the question was. Interesting debate technique to ask an incomprehensible question and repeatedly demand an answer.

Originally Posted by MisterSheep

lol with a loud ass rev match and loud popping exhaust nonsense goin on..

That's one of the sad things about fuel injection. When you engine brake, the fuel gets cut off. When I would engine brake in my Triumph, the fuel was still flowing, and it would dump into the header and pop like a mofo, setting off car alarms and sending the kids in the neighborhood running for cover.

Originally Posted by justatroll

In fact some say that hard engine braking is essential to seating the piston rings when breaking in a newly rebuilt motor.

This was in fact part of the recommended break-in procedure for the crate stroker I put in my Jeep. I had mine broken in on the engine dyno instead, and their break-in routine simulated engine breaking.

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Oh and this was never "nasty" that was a mild difference of opinion. "Nasty" gets the thread closed and temp bans (or worse depending upon past practice of the individuals) for those involved. These how do I drive threads always end up in some dispute.

At least nobody has made comments about the size of the other person's hands.

[justatroll]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

You haven't done it with the nannies cut because the difference is night and day. Normally, if you give it enough throttle the computer eventually says "ok you must really mean it." You've adapted to that.

Ok after I read this I experimented on the drive home from work.
I could not get the car to vary throttle response (that I could tell) whether I was depressing the brake or not.
I tried it while just coasting and lightly pressing the brake, depressed the clutch and revved.
I also tried revving it while actually braking hard, and while heel toe downshifting.
Then I tried revving it when sitting at a light...

What you are suggesting means that the ECU wouldnt let you rev when just sitting stopped while holding the brake?

What test can I do to demonstrate what you are talking about that would show me this "night and day"?

Is it possible that this behavior varies with age of ECU/ROM?

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by justatroll

Ok after I read this I experimented on the drive home from work.
I could not get the car to vary throttle response (that I could tell) whether I was depressing the brake or not.
I tried it while just coasting and lightly pressing the brake, depressed the clutch and revved.
I also tried revving it while actually braking hard, and while heel toe downshifting.
Then I tried revving it when sitting at a light...

What you are suggesting means that the ECU wouldnt let you rev when just sitting stopped while holding the brake?

What test can I do to demonstrate what you are talking about that would show me this "night and day"?

Is it possible that this behavior varies with age of ECU/ROM?

Just do the pedal dance. You will immediately notice while heel-toeing that you don't have to mash the gas pedal to get the revs up. You're never going to notice the difference between night and day if you don't experience the daylight.

[FR-Sky]

Let say I am at 4th to 3rd with 30(+/-)mph,,i will just downshift and release the clutch slowly. NO jerk
If i am at 4th to 3rd with 4x to 5x (+/-)mph, i will rev match. If making corner, i will heel toe. NO jerk

And there is no PREFERRED DOWNSHIFTING METHOD, its all depends on the situation. Different situation use different method; therefore, it wont hurt if you learn them all.

Does it make sense? Feel the clutch/rev/mph ratio

[extrashaky]

I wanted to come back to this:

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

ICool clip. I need to see the movie. But seriously, who double-clutches an upshift? That makes no sense.

Watch that whole chase. They pass the same green VW six or eight times. And the Dodge loses at least seven hubcaps. At one point the Dodge disappears from right before your eyes because the car actually smashed into the camera. The whole thing is utterly ridiculous.

However, the sound design on that film was genius. Lalo Schrifrin's jazz score was meant to continue into that sequence, but you'll notice that as soon as the Dodge burns the tires, the music abruptly cuts off right in the middle of the song. From then on, every sound you hear was laid in, one by one, each for a specific effect.

They were most likely working from wild sound on location masters, where a driver (maybe McQueen himself) drove the shit out of the car for a while off camera as a location sound mixer rode in the car to record extra audio to use in the mixing room. They took the sounds from those tapes and mated them up with what you see on screen to build the audio track.

If you know what you're listening for, you can actually tell that the double-clutch sound was edited in. He probably didn't double-clutch on the upshift.

So why would they put that there, if it's wrong?

First of all, it sounds cool as hell. The sound mixer probably heard that and knew he had to use it somewhere.

Second, the overwhelming majority of people wouldn't know it was wrong. So he could really use it however he wanted.

And third, given one and two, you'll notice that the sound was used primarily after the slide in the dirt, when McQueen is pushing the car to try to catch up. He already revved the crap out of the car, slid it all around and burned the tires more than once earlier in the chase. How do you let the audience know that now he means business? They laid that sound in there wherever there should be a shift as an aural cue to the viewer that Now Shit's Getting Serious.

No, it doesn't make technical sense, but it serves its emotional purpose in the scene, and most people don't know the difference. Even being wrong, it works. If you can forgive the magic green teleporting Beetle and respawning hubcaps, you can let the incorrect use of the sound go too.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by FR-Sky

Let say I am at 4th to 3rd with 30(+/-)mph,,i will just downshift and release the clutch slowly. NO jerk
If i am at 4th to 3rd with 4x to 5x (+/-)mph, i will rev match. If making corner, i will heel toe. NO jerk

And there is no PREFERRED DOWNSHIFTING METHOD, its all depends on the situation. Different situation use different method; therefore, it wont hurt if you learn them all.

Does it make sense? Feel the clutch/rev/mph ratio

There are indeed preferred methods but there is no one method that needs/should be used all the time. You nailed it above!

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by extrashaky

I wanted to come back to this:



Watch that whole chase. They pass the same green VW six or eight times. And the Dodge loses at least seven hubcaps. At one point the Dodge disappears from right before your eyes because the car actually smashed into the camera. The whole thing is utterly ridiculous.

However, the sound design on that film was genius. Lalo Schrifrin's jazz score was meant to continue into that sequence, but you'll notice that as soon as the Dodge burns the tires, the music abruptly cuts off right in the middle of the song. From then on, every sound you hear was laid in, one by one, each for a specific effect.

They were most likely working from wild sound on location masters, where a driver (maybe McQueen himself) drove the shit out of the car for a while off camera as a location sound mixer rode in the car to record extra audio to use in the mixing room. They took the sounds from those tapes and mated them up with what you see on screen to build the audio track.

If you know what you're listening for, you can actually tell that the double-clutch sound was edited in. He probably didn't double-clutch on the upshift.

So why would they put that there, if it's wrong?

First of all, it sounds cool as hell. The sound mixer probably heard that and knew he had to use it somewhere.

Second, the overwhelming majority of people wouldn't know it was wrong. So he could really use it however he wanted.

And third, given one and two, you'll notice that the sound was used primarily after the slide in the dirt, when McQueen is pushing the car to try to catch up. He already revved the crap out of the car, slid it all around and burned the tires more than once earlier in the chase. How do you let the audience know that now he means business? They laid that sound in there wherever there should be a shift as an aural cue to the viewer that Now Shit's Getting Serious.

No, it doesn't make technical sense, but it serves its emotional purpose in the scene, and most people don't know the difference. Even being wrong, it works. If you can forgive the magic green teleporting Beetle and respawning hubcaps, you can let the incorrect use of the sound go too.

Yep! Like most car race/chase/driving films materials it is not a documentary.
Listen close to some of the cars in the F&F franchise. They are not the sounds that should be coming from the engines that we see.
Even the engines we don't see in the cars they do use certainly did not make the noises they did in the movie!
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3etFKjGiibc"]R34 Skyline Buggy Car - Fast and Furious 4 - YouTube[/ame]

[Wired86]

Originally Posted by covance

I found this website that I think does a good job of explaining rev matching with diagrams etc:

http://www.drivingfast.net/car-control/rev-matching.htm

This is a really good resource. It's encouraging to see that it is describing exactly what I've been doing these past few days into the corners and coming to a stop. I also realized that there seems to be almost no reason to downshift to 2nd when coming to a stop. If I downshift into 3rd and then brake in the rest of the way and push the clutch in right as I get to the stop or when the rpms reach approx 1200 to 1300, it doesn't bog down at all and then I can neutral and wait for the lights and then proceed in first . I'm sure I could downshit to 2nd just to be in the proper gear for an emergency at the very last second, but by the time I would do the 2nd gear, I'm already almost at the stop anyhow.

All in all, this thread has helped me a lot, and I can feel myself getting better every time I drive. Drove my brother today and he said that I am leaps and bounds better at MT than when I drove him the first weekend.

[nstymatt]

subbed for later

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Wired86

This is a really good resource. It's encouraging to see that it is describing exactly what I've been doing these past few days into the corners and coming to a stop. I also realized that there seems to be almost no reason to downshift to 2nd when coming to a stop. If I downshift into 3rd and then brake in the rest of the way and push the clutch in right as I get to the stop or when the rpms reach approx 1200 to 1300, it doesn't bog down at all and then I can neutral and wait for the lights and then proceed in first . I'm sure I could downshit to 2nd just to be in the proper gear for an emergency at the very last second, but by the time I would do the 2nd gear, I'm already almost at the stop anyhow.

All in all, this thread has helped me a lot, and I can feel myself getting better every time I drive. Drove my brother today and he said that I am leaps and bounds better at MT than when I drove him the first weekend.

I rarely shift into second on my down shifts for exactly the reasons you said. If an emergency comes up you should still have enough room in 3rd to avoid it.

[extrashaky]

Originally Posted by Wired86

I'm sure I could downshit to 2nd just to be in the proper gear for an emergency at the very last second...

Good luck finding a detailer who will touch that car.

[86 South Africa]

I think have answered your questions already... But when I was young and my F1 career was still on the cards (not) I learned how to heel-toe and rev match while braking heavily into turns etc.

I ended up doing it all the time, and I can tell you from much experience all it does is make you look like a tool (if you do it constantly) and uses more fuel than just normal smooth driving. You really just need to learn to release the clutch smoothly for DD'ing.

Ah. Those carefree days... How I'm still alive is beyond me