Official: Toyota FT-1 Concept / First New Supra Prototype Spotted!

[funwheeldrive]

Originally Posted by guybo

IMHO the car community has to let go the idea of a 4 banger being slow and a 6 cylinder being middling and the V8 being the end all be all of performance.

- a modern turbo 4 puts out like a V6 when tuned right. With modern materials it's possible to shed weight, and with modern tech in the engine bay you can get a very high output 4 banger. 350 BHP is not impossible on a production turbo 4 and in a car that's around 3000 lbs, that's a high performance car. A twin turbo 6 has output like a V8. People are just stuck on this notion that V8 is the only performance engine. That's very 10 years ago. Turbos and [unfortunately] Hybrids are here to stay.

- lightness and efficiency are where modern performance is coming from. A turbo 4 is a better engine than a V6 for this reason alone. A 6 cyl TT is lighter and more efficient than a V8. Sure there's more moving parts and points of failure, but modern bits and bobs and computer management (the same people who complain about drive-by-wire are stuck on V8's) make a modern turbo engine very reliable PLUS there's a lot more tuning options!

I'd love to see this car hit the market with a high boost (I want 40 psi!) boxer 4 banger and a H6 TT.

Don't get me wrong, I love turbocharged 4 cylinder engines, but there is no replacement for displacement. Rumors suggest that the Supra will start around 50k. It would be hard for me to justify spending 50k on a 4 cylinder sports car (that's not ultra lightweight)

I think the car's curb weight will be a huge factor with this car. The 4 cylinder model should weigh under 3200lbs for people to take it seriously. Then it can compete with the new 4 cylinder Cayman.

[guybo]

This thing needs to be well under 3000 and very low COG so it handles for that money. I know it won't be a h 6, but wouldn't that kick ass?

Almost every car is DBW now, v8 or otherwise.

Turbo components don't weight much. I'm sure some of the exotic v8 engines weigh less than a regular turbo 4 but this wont be a $ 200,000 machine. Take for example the Mustangs. I looked at 2015 models- the v8 is 150 lbs heavier. The genesis coupe v6 is a couple hundred lbs heavier than a 2.0t. The Camaro turbo 4 is the lightest in the lineup too.

A Supra with a 350 hp turbo 4 and an option for a 450 hp tt 6 cylinder? Yes please! But it's a fantasy, I don't even think this car will ever get to production.

[abraxis]

I too also would like to see < 3,000lbs. The 86 already failed when it came in significantly over the hoped 2,500lb mark. I can get close stripping it, so it wasn't a complete deal breaker for me. A CF structure weighing over 3,200lbs would just be FAIL imo. Much like the portly Alfa 4C in US spec being almost 2,500lbs which is bloated by MR-S and Elise standards.

I was hoping for an inline 6, but if it's as bad as this article below says, maybe the decision to dump BMW power and go in-house for a clean sheet V6 makes sense for Toyota. I only hope a new twin turbo V6 gets V mounted turbos like the latest Merc power plants to clean up the lag.

http://thegarage.jalopnik.com/bmw-en...hit-1784684330

They should just re-engineer the 2JZ and make it the basis for all their 4 bangers in the future.

[Guff]

Y'all are straight crazy if you think it'll be sub-3000lbs. Need I remind you of the heavy MKIV and even heavier MK3? Lightness is important to an extent, but this is a GT car, not a track day car. It will be comfortable and well equipped which, unless you're a McLaren, means a fair bit of mass.

[abraxis]

Originally Posted by Guff

Y'all are straight crazy if you think it'll be sub-3000lbs. Need I remind you of the heavy MKIV and even heavier MK3? Lightness is important to an extent, but this is a GT car, not a track day car. It will be comfortable and well equipped which, unless you're a McLaren, means a fair bit of mass.

Nobody said that they think it would be sub-3000, we said we'd like it to be. Tbh, I'm trying to hold Toyota's feet to the fire so at worst we get something around 3100lbs rather than giving them permission to dump a 3600lb animal on us. I also consider the 86 a GT car personally, as I would any 2700lb coupe that can be had with leather, nav and seat warmers.

I don't see why the last gen Supras weighing a couple tons would be something for anyone to aim for in a new modern car using carbon fiber technology. I'll take good suspension tuning and adaptive rates in a light car over bad suspension tuning in a heavy car any day. The Supra is a performance car, not a lead sled, so turning and braking are actually going to matter. I'd rather see Toyota do that with something lighter and more responsive than a lard ass Camaro.

If you want something to aim for from the last gen Surpras, shoot for an over-engineered and indestructible power plant, not excess weight. Realistically, 2950-3100lbs for base RWD (4/6 cyl) up to 3200-3350 for a supercapacitor hybrid AWD model would be acceptable I think.

[Tcoat]

Has anybody seen any OFFICIAL updates on the concept? All I can find from Toyota is 2 year old press releases and a bunch of pics in their Concept section on the web page. Debating weight may be all fine and dandy since if it just remains a concept it's production weight will be zero.

[Guff]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Has anybody seen any OFFICIAL updates on the concept? All I can find from Toyota is 2 year old press releases and a bunch of pics in their Concept section on the web page. Debating weight may be all fine and dandy since if it just remains a concept it's production weight will be zero.

Very true haha. All I know is that it was officially greenlighted as far as development goes, but how long it'll take to see a concept is unknown. Tbh, I feel like the 2018 release dates that all the car pubs are posting is just a bit too generous. I think we'll see the official Supra concept in 2017, followed by a production concept in 2018, and then perhaps production startng late 2018 or 2019. Lest we forget how long Toyota takes on their big projects!

Also @abraxis, remember that this is going to be a conventional steel unibody car, so it won't be starting with as little weight as a carbon monocoque. I think 3100 lbs is definitely a good place to shoot for, but to be honest, I don't think it'll be much lighter than an LFA, which uses copious amounts of carbon fiber and aluminum, all while being roughly the same estimated footprint of the new Supra. For reference, the LFA weighs in at 3263lbs according to official figures, and in this day and age, that's quite light for that segment.

[Summerwolf]

Considering the NSX is 3800 lbs and the Z06 is 3300.... to say this car "should" be under 3,000 or "around" 3100 is pretty ludicrous.


This will be a somewhat luxury GT car with a nice suspension and a bit of power. I'd expect it to be somewhere between those two cars, and hopefully perform somewhere in the C7 area in all categories.

[abraxis]

Originally Posted by Guff

remember that this is going to be a conventional steel unibody car

Do you have confirmation on this? The Z5 and Supra were supposedly looking to expand use of BMW's CFRP from the i3 and i8.



http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/1...bon-fiber-cars

That was one of the reasons for the Collaboration/MoU between the two companies.

[abraxis]

Originally Posted by Summerwolf

Considering the NSX is 3800 lbs and the Z06 is 3300.... to say this car "should" be under 3,000 or "around" 3100 is pretty ludicrous.


This will be a somewhat luxury GT car with a nice suspension and a bit of power. I'd expect it to be somewhere between those two cars, and hopefully perform somewhere in the C7 area in all categories.

The Z06 is actually 3500lbs, but that has an 6.2l pushrod V8 and a massive Supercharger under the hood. Good thing too, because at 3550lbs versus 3200lbs, apparently the 2016 Z06 now includes an offensive lineman from the Dallas Cowboys in the passenger seat. The latest Grand Sport is around 150lbs lighter, and Corvettes from only a few years ago (e.g.-2012) hovered around 3,200lbs. So that is not unheard of and doesn't require unicorn tears to make happen. I don't consider historical facts to be "ludicrous" at all.

http://corvettes.about.com/od/buying...rvette-Z06.htm

Don't even get me started on the drama this NSX project turned into. It's nice their engineers finally figured out how to mount an engine without burning the car to the ground.

On the luxury side, is this supposed to be a Toyota or a Lexus? Because the difference can be upwards of 100lbs or more depending.

[Summerwolf]

Originally Posted by abraxis

The Z06 is actually 3500lbs, but that has an 6.2l pushrod V8 and a massive Supercharger under the hood. Don't even get me started on the drama this NSX project turned into...

On the luxury side, is this supposed to be a Toyota or a Lexus? Because the difference can be upwards of 100lbs or more depending.

You're right, base model C7 is the lower weight. What does the supercharger and V8 have to do with anything? That setup is lighter than the GTR's DOHC twin turbo setup, which would be similar in weight to the Supras proposed DOHC twin turbo (probably.)


I would expect a car of this caliber to come equipped with leather seats, premium stereo, and some nice amenities.... so yeah, an upscale Toyota.


LT4 = 529 pounds


VR38DETT = 608 pounds


So says the internet, lol. More turbos and more cams = more weight... but it needs the power to go along with it as well.

[abraxis]

Originally Posted by Summerwolf

You're right, base model C7 is the lower weight. What does the supercharger and V8 have to do with anything? That setup is lighter than the GTR's DOHC twin turbo setup, which would be similar in weight to the Supras proposed DOHC twin turbo (probably.)


I would expect a car of this caliber to come equipped with leather seats, premium stereo, and some nice amenities.... so yeah, an upscale Toyota.


LT4 = 529 pounds


VR38DETT = 608 pounds


So says the internet, lol. More turbos and more cams = more weight... but it needs the power to go along with it as well.

What does it have to do with anything? LT4 is 80lbs heavier than the L7. The Z06 has gained 350lbs total over the past 4 years.

BMW N55 3.0L Turbo I-6 is 427lbs. So 102lbs lighter than the LT4 even with more cams!! The S55 Twin Turbo is 452lbs.

http://www.eurocarnews.com/0/0/116/0...lvetronic.html

MB M178 4.0L TT V-8 is 461lbs. So 68lbs lighter than LT4. That has more cams and turbos too.

http://www.autoblog.com/2014/07/25/m...g-gt-official/

Ford Ecoboost 3.5L Turbo V-6 is 417lbs. 112lbs lighter than the LT4.

http://www.cjponyparts.com/ford-raci...hp/p/M600735T/

Ford Voodoo 5.2L V-8 DOHC flat plane crank somewhere < 440lbs.

I'm not going to speculate on what Nissan does and whether Toyota will put anything like the VR in the Supra. I hope not. The idea Toyota is developing a clean sheet engine which would just be a copy of a competitors decades old design doesn't make much sense to me.

Also, the N55 is built by Steyr in Graz, Austria. Same place as the Supra supposedly.

[tennisfreak]

Just give me:

2 doors
<= 3200lbs
400+hp
well equipped price of <=$50,000

Making me happy is very easy, DO IT TOYOTA!

[Summerwolf]

Originally Posted by abraxis

What does it have to do with anything? LT4 is 80lbs heavier than the L7. The Z06 has gained 350lbs total over the past 4 years.

BMW N55 3.0L Turbo I-6 is 427lbs. So 102lbs lighter than the LT4 even with more cams!! The S55 Twin Turbo is 452lbs.

http://www.eurocarnews.com/0/0/116/0...lvetronic.html

MB M178 4.0L TT V-8 is 461lbs. So 68lbs lighter than LT4. That has more cams and turbos too.

http://www.autoblog.com/2014/07/25/m...g-gt-official/

I'm not going to speculate on what Nissan does and whether Toyota will put anything like the VR in the Supra. I hope not. The idea Toyota is developing a clean sheet engine which would just be a copy of a competitors decades old design doesn't make much sense to me.

Also, the N55 is built by Steyr in Graz, Austria. Same place as the Supra supposedly.

The Z06 has gained weight along with a whole new body redesign, a different motor with new technology and upgraded interior options. Also it has to keep up with the current government mandates.


Using the LS7 to compare weights is not the greatest idea either, you'd have to directly compare to the LS9 (supercharged motor to supercharged motor) but it is still a moot point since the C7 is a complete redesign both in vehicle and drivetrain compared to the previous gen. At least when comparing C5 to C6 they shared a lot of the same underpinnings.


I just used the Nissan engine as a basis for a car in a similar category and a direct comparison to an engine that randomly got sidetracked to.


All of this is conjecture, obviously. I just would not and have never considered that the Supra would be anything but a Toyota rival to the corvette, but a bit softer overall. So, similar or higher weight and similar performance, but possibly more enjoyable over a long drive.